Author Topic: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?  (Read 7184 times)

Leighton

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A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« on: September 05, 2009, 07:50:03 PM »
I have recently bought a nice fowler that appears to have been made by the Springfield armory as it has the VP and Eagle on the barrel . The Lock has Salem MS which I assume to be Salem Massuchusetts. I would appreciate your comments.All hardware is Brass and the rib is wood and everything is very well done.



« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 07:50:42 PM by Leighton »

Offline smart dog

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2009, 09:01:41 PM »
Hi Leighton,
My guess (assuming it is a smoothbore) is that it is a military barrel made at Springfield or Harper's Ferry in the mid 1800s.  Both armories used the V over P and eagle marks.  I may be wrong but it seems that the armories stamped the V closely over the P during the mid-1800s but earlier the eagle usually separated the V from the P.  The MS is not necessarily Massachusetts.  I believe at the time the usual abreviation for that state was Mass.  There is a Salem, Mississippi and a Salem, Missouri.  My guess is Salem, Mississippi.

dave
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rdillon

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2009, 09:05:41 PM »
Looks to me like someone had their musket turned into a hunting piece after they got home from the war.  I have seen a few like this.  I'm sure someone with more knowledge on this will chime in.

This one looks very nice.  Note the wooden under rib.

I like it, Rich

jwh1947

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2009, 11:02:32 PM »
I spend more time with militaries than I do with Kentuckys...somewhat of a lifelong pursuit.  You are correct in saying that what we have here is a military barrel refashioned into a sporting firearm.  The back action lock is commercial and most likely later than the barrel.   A perfect example of our ancestors not discarding anything that can be rebuilt or recycled.   

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2009, 11:44:56 PM »
I have seen quite a few of these fowlers with military stamped barrels. I'm beginning to think they were surplus barrels sold by the government , not something re used.
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Offline TPH

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2009, 11:52:21 PM »
What is the caliber? My guess by the breach form is that it is a surplus or (more likely) re-used .69 cal.
T.P. Hern

Leighton

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2009, 12:45:46 AM »
It is a .690 bore and 36 inches long. So obviously it is an Musket bbl from earlier days. Maybe it actually was Salem, Miss. Whomever made it did a great job and even painted a forend cap with Black paint, the wooded rib and attachment is very well done professionally.

Leighton

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2009, 12:57:04 AM »
This is a comment from one of my Mississippi friends:

 I didn't know that a Salem, Miss. ever existed. I looked it up and it is
only a bend in the road. Hard to believe that there were enough people
around there to support a gunmaker - it had to be one of the most remote
places in the whole state back then. Even though they had run them all off
to Oklahoma, much of that area was still deeded to the Chicasaw Nation at
that time.

I'd place my bet on Salem, Mass. The MS abbreviation for Mississippi was
never used until the USPS came up with that one in the 1970s.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2009, 01:14:27 AM »
As has been said, a fowler made from a musket barrel. These are commonplace and not particularly valuable, in New England. Mike is probably spot on regarding the barrel. It was most likely sold at one of the many auctions of condemned and obsolete parts. That was a common source of all sorts of parts, many of which were made up into muskets for militia members since they had to provide their own. The barrel could have been made by any federal contractor...the view and proof was done by traveling inspectors.

Another possibility (because the gun is so late I doubt this is the case) is that the barrel was simply taken from already inspected and proved stores, and sold. This happened quite a lot because the government was extremely slow paying the contractors. After the barrels were proved, the contractor received a receipt which he was supposed to turn in for his payment. Often he had to wait many months, sometimes years and the only way to stay in business was to sell some of the product. There were a lot of complaints about this on the part of the Federal officials but nothing ever happened because, at heart, they knew the problem was their own fault. In the end, nearly every Federal musket contractor went bankrupt, the major exceptions being Whitney, Pomeroy and Waters. All of them worked hard to find other customers and products because working for the Federal government was a dead end.

Offline smart dog

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2009, 02:25:12 AM »
Leighton,
I found Salem Miss and Salem Missouri on the internet, which is why I proposed them as possible alternatives to Salem Mass without knowing anything about them.  Of course a small road stop in Miss was unlikely to have a gun making business.  However, I have never seen MS used as an abbreviation for Mass.  During th 19th century the abbreviation was always (at least to my knowledge) Mass.  Lindsay lists 1 gunsmith in Salem, Mass. during the mid 19th century - Horatio Perry.  His list is by no means complete so there may have been others.  It also may be that the address (if it is an address) is for an importer or gun supplier.  It would be interesting to see if there are any marks inside the lockplate.  The barrel might come from a model 1842.

dave 
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Leighton

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 04:46:01 AM »
No marks inside the lock, just a nice imported style lock. I think the 1842 style musket bbl is right
and I suspect it was made in the 1850s. Where is another question as it could have been any of the three states mentioned. Missouri is a good suspect. I am shooting it with 75 gr Black , 1 oz shot and 16 ga
"brass" fiber wads which fit perfectly.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2009, 06:17:01 AM »
"MS" is the 18th/19th century abbreviation  for Massachusetts. All state-owned guns were marked MS. It was in use before either Mississippi or Missouri were admitted to the Union. (1817 & 1821)
The wooden under rib is another very NE feature.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 06:23:46 AM by JV Puleo »

Offline smart dog

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2009, 07:24:14 AM »
JV,
I guess the important question then, was it used in the mid 19th century when this gun was made?  I also understand that MS may mean State of Massachusetts, but that mark was normally stamped on military guns from the 18th-early 19th century.   Nonethelss, it certainly could be Massachusetts and as you say it has NEngland characteristics.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline TPH

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 04:26:38 PM »
It is doubtful that the barrel came from a M1842, there is no sign of the military percussion bolster and the proof marks are too far forward to allow for the removal of that much of the breach. It is much more likely a M1816 barrel, or possibly a late M1812. The gun, as it is, was civilian made between 1855 and 1875 for hunting purposes only, it was not a state militia musket and damaged or surplus muskets were common on the civilian market throughout that time period. The "MS" is simply an abbreviation  for Massachusetts. The wooden rib is a common feature on inexpensive guns in New England and much rarer in other parts of the country.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 04:29:45 PM by TPH »
T.P. Hern

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 05:42:30 PM »
I would place this gun as late as the 1870's and undoubtedly in Mass.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2009, 04:19:53 AM »
I've seen a lot of these around New England. They are kind of the Iver Johnsons of the late percussion era. They usually handle and balance pretty well though, and often are still usable. The wooden under-rib can be found on New England fowlers both plain and fancy.  Some that I've seen were oak and hickory and I've seen a couple of ebony, too. As a genre, these guns have tended to be ignored, but the single barrel late period fowler can be a lively and effective field companion.

rdillon

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 07:14:31 AM »
I totally agree with Mike Brooks.  After further research it is definitely Mass, and the wooden under rib is a dead ringer for a NE gun.  Nice find!  Is it for sale ???

Leighton

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Re: A Springfield Muzzleloading Fowler?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 03:25:32 PM »
Thanks for all of the great info everyone.
 I bought it as a shooter and have been shooting it some, but I am not immune to a trade or sale ,but really not enthusiastic about it.