W. Richards double percussion shotgun

[Pukka Bundook]

Not wanting to  be a nay-sayer, but I would like to see close-ups of the locks both inside and out,  If that can be arranged.
Plus, the lock mortises.

The one hammer I saw a little of above looked a bit iffy.

Daryl,

Belgian guns can be Very high end.    Top of the line, but they do not Have to be.

[pilot]

I tried to take the locks off yesterday, but the lock screw is tight and I was afraid of breaking it.  I sprayed it with some blaster and will try again tomorrow, 

The triggers match, but one looks like it has had a lot more exposure to hot primer gases.  I can get close ups when I try to get the locks loose.

[Pukka Bundook]

Gents,
My sister found the old and very sad Westley Richards in the shed in a barrel.
The barrels will not fit into the stock, as the entry pipe is bent up into the bareel channel and catches the rib.

I took some photos of it all the same.
The right -hand hammer does not fit.
I have been thinking on whether to say what I think, or just sit on it;   Maybe my age makes it harder to sit on things!

In the end I decided to say what I think.
The gun in the opening post was not made as it appears now, by Westley Richards.
Someone up the page said that this company made a lot of different quality guns. 
I have not seen this. All were of good quality, even if extremely plain.
A gunmaker made his reputation by the quality of his work, not by producing great amounts of lesser quality.
The Birmingham trade and off-shore makers were well qualified to fulfill this latter role.
The  escutcheon plates are not W-R.  Neither are the multi-coloured bands at the breech.
This is not to disparage the gun in the O.P, but merely to state that to think this is the work of W-R is to misunderstand British 19th century gunmaking of better quality arms.
The key and goal, was Understatement, elegance,  not "Gingerbread" as it was called.    For cheaper guns, aimed at those who had maybe never owned a gun before, fancied up guns were undoubtedly made, plus this was still in style to some degree on the Continent.
I do feel sorry for saying this, as it looks like I am bashing the gun in this thread, and this is not what I want to do.

The proofs on the old wreck belonging to my sister, are the usual Birmingham proof and view marks.

For comparison, here are a few photos.





Above, the normal Birmingham proof and view marks, 1813 to 1904.






Above,
the normal treatment of the gold lines at breech and type of bar for the lock.





Hammer and lock.

[Pukka Bundook]

Sorry Pilot, our posts crossed.
Take time on the sidenail, so's you don't break anything!
Just a quick couple of pictures of these locks and mortise;




Clean and competent, not fancy.







Same with inletting.

Apologies Pilot,  These pictures are only meant to show the usual Style of work.  Your gun appears thoroughly sound, and may be a genuine W-R, but has had some cosmetic alterations done on it if that's the case.

Very best wishes,
Richard.

[pilot]

Your example of the proof mark is what I was looking for and did not see.  As stated earlier, I can't make out the proof mark on this one. 

When I said the triggers match, I meant hammers.

I would suspect the hammers on a field grade to match the shape of the better grade.  Mine are far more robust, to put it kindly.   The hammers on the gun you posted are far more elegant.  It will be interesting to see what these locks look like inside.

Also, thank you for posting these pictures.  It really helps having to have something to compare my gun to.  I'm learning a lot here.  This is my first foray into the world of percussion shotguns.

[T*O*F]

The gun in the opening post was not made as it appears now, by Westley Richards.

No one ever said it was.  You pulled this thread off track with your assertion.  In fact, we were discussing the firm started by William Richards in 1801 in London.  He was succeeded by his son William who came to Liverpool via Birmingham in 1842 and died in 1864.  He was succeeded by his son Henry who carried on the business at various locations and died in 1895.  Westley was the last of the line.  Another son, William,  had his own shop in Preston which was absorbed by the Liverpool firm upon his death in 1920.

It is perfectly obvious that the firm of W. Richards existed in a variety of locations during its lifetime.  We cannot know what type and quality of guns were made by Wm. 1, Wm. 2, or Wm. 3, which could be proofed either London or Birmingham.  Likewise, we cannot yet know if all the incarnations made their own barrels in house or sourced some of them from outside, including Belgium during times of high demand.

In the case of fake guns, if so many of these are purported to exist and show up here, why are none of them listed for sale in the catalogs of any of the Philadelphia import houses who supplied guns and gun parts to the USA; while other English makers such as Manton, Moore, et al are prominently listed for sale.  This is all wide open speculation which can only be solved by further research by records which are probably only available in the UK.

[Pukka Bundook]

I seem to have ruffled your feathers, Dave.

My reason for posting, was because some appear to think the gun as it now stands is the "real deal', but from the earliest days of W-R, the guns were made in a workmanlike manner, and Finished to an understood level.
The gun in the O.P appears to fulfill the first requirement, but the fittings and such are not what we expect.
Re Westley Richards, He is spoken of by Peter Hawker in his book "Instructions" as "Quite the Star of Birmingham" and his London agent, "Uncle Bishop" also, as supplying Gentlemen with a "Good gun at short notice"  (Page 5, "Instructions to Young Sportsmen").

When I said what I did in your quote, I was meaning that it had some additions that would not appear on a normal grade W-R.
I had no intentions of pulling this thread off track, so will say no more on this topic, and allow yourself and others get it back on track!


All the very best,
Richard.

[pilot]

Real deal or not, I shot it today.  No problems with it at all.  The left barrel is choked.  I have no idea how much.  Both barrels pattern close to the same.  I shot it with 80 grains of ffg and the same volume of no. 6 shot.

It is a heavy gun at 9 pounds 15 ounces and recoil was mild, but I want to turkey hunt with it this spring, so I will be bumping that up to 100 grains. 

Over all, I'm happy.  I bought this to shoot and it does.

I still haven't been able to take the locks off, but will try again after turkey season.

[Daryl]

My 12 bore shoots well with 75gr. 1F and 1 1/4oz. 7 1/2's.  I have no reason it would not shoot well with 1 1/4oz. of #5's or #6's. & the 75gr. charge.
Pattern is what will kill your turkey, not velocity, which can have a detrimental effect of patterns, especially from the non-choked bore.

[pilot]

I did some cyphering and weighing today with powder and shot.  I have a better handle on loads now.  The 80 grain volume of shot was 1 and an eighth oz.    I think I'll stick with the 80 grains of ffg and up the shot to 90 grain volume.  That will be right at1 1/4 ounce of shot.  I'm going to shoot it again tomorrow and pattern that load.

[pilot]

I finally got the locks off.  I had sprayed the screw with penetrating oil a week or two ago and today it moved.  Turns out the right sear spring is a replacement.  It doesn't have a hole to run the screw through, so it rides on the screw instead.

[pilot]

The hammer spur snapped off of the left hammer.      Anyone know where I could get a replacement?

The broken off part showed rust on half the break like it has been cracked for a while.