Paper cartridge video anyone ?

[Clark Badgett]

I don't know how paper is weight classified. The 1841 Ordinance manual lists cartridge paper is being in sheets of 13x161/2" with 1000 sheets to a bundle weighing 20lbs, which translated to roughly 1/3 ounce per sheet. The proof weight (breaking strength) of the paper was conducted with a 4x12" sheet cut in the weakest direction of the fiber and had to break no sooner than 85 1/2lbs. The 1849 manual lists the same while the 1861 manual reduces the proof weight to 40lbs.

I will say that the 3 original paper cartridges I've had the fortune to examine in detail were made with quite thin paper.

[Daryl]

How many of these, if any are antiques I do not know. I do believe the top buck and ball is old. Obviously the oxidized buck and ball stuck together are pickups from "drops" at battle sites where the paper rotted off.
These all appear to be fairly heavy paper, but looks can be deceiving.

[Nessmuck]

Those 32-36 cal balls.....that’s a nasty load ,right there !

[Clark Badgett]

Daryl, most of the buck and ball rounds that are intact and floating around on the collectors market are from the period of our Civil War, there are a few from earlier but not many. .69 Cal muskets were used quite heavily during that war, right up until it was almost over. Then after the war those old smoothbores were sold off to western bound settlers and I'm sure any left over ammo was sold off as well. I've tried making arsenal style paper cartridges from many types of paper and the best paper I found was from those small brown paper sandwich bags that used to be in most supermarkets (not the grocery bags). They folded well and tore uniformly, newsprint is a close second. Typing paper if used to make the issued style paper cartridges and made correctly as per the instructions will not tear, not even when I had my youthful 20 y/o teeth, plus they were extremely bulky. That 4th cartridge you posted looks to be a .58 Minie style made to the 1861 specification, but you can't really tell unless you are holding in hand. The 5th picture looks to be 2 types intended for breech loaders and the greased RB might be a .54 rifle cartridge, but I've never found any reference to the ball end being greased, which would be logical for it to be though.

[Daryl]

Thanks for the info Clark. Yes - as I figured as well. According to "Firearms of the American West", prior to the civil war, buck and ball ctgs. were issued and used more than 2:1 to single
ball ctgs.  Also, there was a buckshot load for their .69(& .70) muskets that contained 9 balls.  Oft times these were loaded in the night guard duty muskets for shooting at prowling "wolves"
in the dark. The odd time, their "yelps" told of hits. Of course one assumes these 'wolves" were 2 legged.
The buckshot actual size, I do not know, but likely 00 (.32) as those should "nest" properly in a .69.
It takes a 12 bore to "nest" in layers of 3 balls, .360's(000). Yes, Hornady's 000 (triple ought) are .350" - just the way it goes sometimes.
In modern shells, due to the paper or plastic hulls, 00 nest properly, but are then loose in the bore.
As to the outside lubing the outside of the paper ctg. around a ball, I've not found that to be necessary for the rifle, where I am able to shoot 10 with perfect accuracy, then shoot a cleaning load
of a very wet patch, .682" ball with 82gr. of 2F.  This cleans the bore to where I can fire another 10 paper ctgs. 10 shots is more than I even carried, while hunting moose. I used 2 once.
I was aware of the use of muskets during the civil war. Prior to the war, muskets with thick enough barrels for rifling, were returned to Valley Forge(I think) and Springfield for rifling, for use with
the 730gr. Minnie. The model 1842 Musket, the last of the .69 muskets, was a favourite of some field commanders, as noted in the book. The Minnie's charge was 70gr. I think, but not sure if the
model of 1812 was also rifled.  It was noted, seems to me, that many of the muskets had their barrels too badly worn for rifling, due to the constant rubbing with ramrods & other materials for commanders who demanded a polished barrel.

[Clark Badgett]

Daryl, in my .54 rifle cartridge reference I was referring to the ordnance specification for the rifle cartridge .54 Cal. It specifies a .530 ball wrapped in muslin, membrane of similar thin patching and tied off and then tied into the paper cartridge. I can remember many years ago I saw a rifle cartridge that was made by necking the paper tube to the tail of the patch wrapped ball, and the ball was greased, but can not find anything of the sort since then. I think the manual intended for the ball to be tied into the tube and then charged, but don't know if the intent was to ram both the paper and the thin patching or if those poor rifle troops had to stand there under fire and peel off the paper before they could finish the load.

Most of the M1842 muskets were smoothbore and the Ordnance department did rifle some of the older muskets but found the barrels were weakened and stopped the practice. Rifled M1842s were a rare breed, but were used. What amazes me if that even once rifle muskets were commonly available there were some veteran regiments that absolutely refused to part with their pumpkin slingers. Much the same way that the early US Marines tried to hold onto the Brown Bess muskets as long as they were allowed.

In the 1841 manual it specifies the bundles of ammunition for muskets to be packed with 5 ball and 5 buck and ball, a practice that disappears by the 1849 manual. B&B was indeed the standard and preferred loading, and you nailed it, the buck was .32 cal.

Our weapons producing arsenals were Springfield, Mass and Harpers Ferry, Va (until the start of the war), with many munitions and equipage arsenals scattered in the various states.

[Daryl]

I figured the .54 you referred to, was the issue ctg.  For me, it made no sense to have to peel the paper off the ball and with the ctg. wadded up beneath the ball, it would form a wad or gasket
to seal the powder gasses behind. That is does this, might be demonstrated due to the paper ctg. not catching fire on the way out. If there was gas blowby on the way out the barrel, the paper
would catch, at least an ember.
Yes - not Valley Forge, but Harper's Ferry - my mistaken memory. Been a while since I read the book.
What amazed me, was the early and later loading for the .69 muskets. Prior to 1800, the load was 165gr. which included prime and some time after 1800, the charge was reduced to 135gr.,
including prime. Some soldiers did complain about the recoil.

[Daryl]

Equally odd, or funny, was attempting to put the whole charge into the Hall and the later Monkey Tail carbines. It would not fit. Note was made of that
in the books.

[Nessmuck]

Can someone tell me the dimensions of the paper...used to make cartridges for a 62 cal....and thanks ! Pics would be nice.

[Daryl]

The first step is to make the dowel or form, deciding if you are making it tapered or straight sided.
On the first page of this thread, I showed a picture of the forming dowel I used with the Bess, using a .715" ball and 85gr. powder.
The length and taper will be up to you on the amount of powder you want to use.
Once you have the dowel make, you roll paper on it, making as need be for 2 laps, and enough overlap for gluing, then cut out the piece
of paper. Measure it up, done.
You could also do it this way.

[Nessmuck]

When I get some time...Gonnah experiment making some cartridges....thanks everyone for the info !

[Daryl]

Yes - experimentation is the only way to do it. Actual size of the paper depends on a lot of factors - the actual ball size and paper thickness being only 2 of the variables.
What it says on the mould, only sometimes is the diameter of the ball cast in THAT mould.

[RichG]

how about paper cartridge's for shot loads? would you need smaller than normal wads? individual cartridge for powder and shot?

[Daryl]

This is the Ely shot ctg. which contains the wad. It was meant for non-choked guns, and was colour
coded for effectiveness at different ranges.





We can do the same with paper wrapped shot charges, with or without a wad. Put down first, perhaps.
Different weight of paper - different ranges?  Paper wrap undersize so it splits when you seat it on the over
powder wad? Paper slit down from the top when loaded. using plastic wads with card between powder and wad?
Lead shot wads are less stiff than steel shot wads.
Ballistic products has a lot of different wads.
The cupped wads, if placed cup-up, will center a round ball in the middle of the bore - automatically. The is what I did in the SxS 12 bore.
It worked perfectly, with under 10" groups at 100 meters - offhand.
Lots of room for experimentation, including unslit steel wads so you can vary the rate of dispersion from the wad, for example.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Wads/departments/83/

[Clark Badgett]

If I was going to make a paper cartridge for shot cartridges, I would make a tube that was a slip fit for the inside of the bore, tie off the end. Then I would make a shot cup from some printer type paper that slipped easily into the main tube, fill that with shot and then insert that into the tube with the open end against the ties end. Fill the powder charge under that, then fold or twist to form the cartridge. When firing simply tear the powder end, pour and ram to charge with the paper as the wadding. You could experiment with either tying of gluing the shot cup end to see which patterns best, and you could even try a wad over the shot if needed. When making non-military cartridges, half the fun is the experimentation.

[Daryl]

Sounds good, Craig.