Author Topic: MASTER CARVERS????  (Read 6424 times)

Offline backsplash75

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Re: MASTER CARVERS????
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2021, 03:52:30 PM »
Scott, yes, but. If we limit to 1765 in Lancaster, I agree. True anywhere in 1765. But in addition to your listing, in a cursory glance, I find Joel Ferree 1758, and John Newcomer 1767. There seems to have been a significant upswing in the years leading to the Revolutionary War. By 1771, a few scant years after 1765, we have Albrecht, Haines, Fainot, Gonter, and so on. Perhaps following the close of the French and Indian War, a rise in demand for longrifles occurred.

Of course if we place any weight on any of our theories on the subject at hand, we’ve invested badly, as we are talking about undocumented world views of people long dead and distant from our world views.

Gents,
Great discussion. Looking at things from a macro not micro perspective is important from time to time. Let's reach for the bubble pipe and get the iron on patches for our elbows.

Rifles in 18th century North America are generally speaking, deer guns. They are acceptable for offensive skirmishing, and defending fixed fortified positions from loopholes but the tight tolerances that make them accurate also make them fussy when fouled and slow to load (then there is the lack of a bayonet). If you are not in an area with a lot of deer or competing in long range matches, they aren't likely to be as much of a high priority thing. If you are in the interior and after smaller game, a smoothbore has merits and is cheaper. To play devil's advocate, a ton of deer also get knocked down with trading guns in this time frame too, but we see a turning point towards rifle preference for that use in this period.

Pennsylvania was an odd duck as it's wealth, leadership predispositions and geographic position mean that diplomacy and proxies are used in times of conflict instead of a long sturdy militia tradition as seen in other colonies.

War is a giant engine of change. The French and Indian war brought massive amounts of change to America. In many places, the frontier/back country was wholly depopulated of European settlers fleeing violence, those that remain tended to be "forted up". Lots of Cherokees and southerners serving in the Provincial service end up in Pennsylvania and the Ohio country where they exposed to rifles and rifle culture. Huge changes also come in the form of military road building. Once the war is over, and the French are ejected, these roads built to service advanced fortifications become the routes for settlement as populations return to the frontier. Many men who would have otherwise been laboring on inland farms find themselves serving in the backcountry, where they see land and opportunity, of course, many of these men also received land grants. This leads to a GIANT explosion in westward migration following the F&I war's end. I suspect this giant migration was the reason why you see the number of rifle makers grow in the 1760s into the RevWar era to meet demand.

I highly recommend reading "The Scratch of a Pen: 1763 and the transformation of North America" by Colin G. Calloway.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 04:15:53 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline smart dog

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Re: MASTER CARVERS????
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2021, 04:18:33 PM »
Hi,
This is a great discussion.  As a fairly skilled and historically astute gun maker, I don't find carving in styles found on most colonial and Rev War period firearms in America to be terribly difficult or time consuming to do.  For example, I did a Reading gun on which I spent no more than 1.5-2 hours drawing, cutting and finishing the carving behind the cheek piece, and I suspect I was slow compared to my counterpart 250 years ago. Silver and brass wire inlay of the time on American guns is even easier and faster to do (note I specify "American" guns because metal wire inlay on many European and British guns can be very challenging).  That is why I enjoyed my foray into the Edward Marshall rifle because it was almost certainly carved by a European trained master and as such stands out from many of its American contemporaries and is more challenging.  It also was heavily used based on the wear so sophisticated decoration does not mean wall hanger in the 18th century.  Moreover, one of the most time consuming aspects of decorating is designing, particularly for gun makers who are tradesmen and not trained artists or designers.  Once you develop and cut a design, it is much quicker to repeat that over and over again, which is what we see on so many 18th century guns and which is often used as a signature for specific gunsmiths.  In an era, in which so many utilitarian items had some decoration (e.g., Albrecht's coffee mill) it should not be surprising that so many surviving guns have some carving or decoration despite evidence of hard use and wear.  Think of how many highly decorated American long rifles were converted to percussion.  Why do that if it was not used?  I think the idea of choice is a bit of a red herring.  Obviously, a consumer has to select based on what is available but that availability is so site and time dependent, subject to so many contingencies, such that I doubt it is a very useful generalizing principle.  Caspar Wistar was importing guns and parts from Germany during the early 18th century to meet a local market, Oerter made at least a few rifles for folks living quite far away, Dan Morgan traveled from Winchester, VA to Reading, PA to purchase rifles, apparently William Turvey and his successor, Jonathan Stanton, had quite a market selling to well heeled Maryland and Virginia land owners who were not impressed by the local rifled products, and of course Richard Wilson sold guns all over the colonies. Whether or not, buyers appreciated decoration must depend on personal traits of the buyer, and site and time specific contingency. 

dave               
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline backsplash75

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Re: MASTER CARVERS????
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2021, 04:32:02 PM »
"Hi,
This is a great discussion... "

snip

" I think the idea of choice is a bit of a red herring.  Obviously, a consumer has to select based on what is available but that availability is so site and time dependent, subject to so many contingencies, such that I doubt it is a very useful generalizing principle.  Caspar Wistar was importing guns and parts from Germany during the early 18th century to meet a local market..."

and specifying a barrel length to meet market demands

"... Dan Morgan traveled from Winchester, VA to Reading, PA to purchase rifles, apparently William Turvey and his successor, Jonathan Stanton, had quite a market selling to well heeled Maryland and Virginia land owners who were not impressed by the local rifled products, and of course Richard Wilson sold guns all over the colonies. Whether or not, buyers appreciated decoration must depend on personal traits of the buyer, and site and time specific contingency...dave  "

               

I'd love to see your info on Morgan! There is quite a scramble to procure arms in the 1770s. 

Quote
Journal and Correspondence of the Maryland Council of Safety, July 7:December 31, 1776

Volume 12, Page 8   View pdf image (33K)

 [Chapman to Council.]

Gentn Finding myself affected by a resolution of your late
convention respecting the removal of fire arms out of this
Governm't I beg leave to represent to your Honrs my situation
early last spring on the repeated request of one Jacob Reason,
gunsmith in Fredrick Town, who had a comodious shop but
in low circumstances therefore unable to carry on the Business
to any considerable extent. I undertook to furnish him with
tools &c. & workmen rented his shop & Hired him on wages
for a year & also agreed to give him half the profits for his
further encouragement on this agreement I laid out in Phila-
delphia & other parts of that state upwards of 500 in pur-
chasing tools Gun locks, barrels, bayonets & brass mounting,
with this prospect I undertook to furnish the Governmt of
Virginia a number of arms rifles & musquets, at stipulated
price to be delivered as got ready till June next, the rifles I
have complied with without interfering with the aforesaid
resolve, by delivering them at Frederick town to Colls Weedon
& Hugh Stevenson. I have also done a considerable Job of
work for your state, repairing old arms, & have now a proper
preparation of materials to proceed to fulfil my promises
respecting musquets. I therefore now Hbly crave leave of
your Honble board, to remove those guns as finished over to
Virginia to fulfil my engagements with that Government.
I am Gentn yr very Hble Servt
Josias Chapman of
Loudoun Coty Virga

Offline smart dog

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Re: MASTER CARVERS????
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2021, 01:40:54 AM »
Hi Backsplash75,
Of course Washington complained that Stevenson had not provided any arms when he said he would.  Anyway, the Morgan story about purchasing guns in Reading is one commonly told within Morgan's Rifle Corps unit of the BAR.  I have not been able to find documentation supporting it but that does not detract from the point I was making about wide spread knowledge of gun makers product, which affects choice. After your prompting, I looked at some documents that I downloaded when I was building a Reading gun.  I hadn't looked at them for a while and one is a history of Berks County during the Revolution by Morton Montgomery.  He includes chapters on supplying arms and provisions to the American Army.  I discovered something that may be a confounding detail.  There was a Col. Jacob Morgan that arranged and inspected provisions to the American Army from Berks County and Reading.  It is possible that he is mistaken for Daniel when it comes to arms purchases because he is often referred to in official documents as "Colonel Morgan".

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."