Author Topic: frizzed backlash  (Read 1947 times)

Offline curly

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • In GOD we trust
frizzed backlash
« on: May 13, 2021, 07:05:23 PM »
Hi guys. I have a terrible problem with my frizzen bouncing back and crushing my flint. Last shoot, I only got off 3 shots before I had to change flints. Any ideas on how to remedy this problem? This is the second time its happened to me. Both are L&R locks. One Dures Egg, and the new Bails lock. L&R are no help in this matter :-\.
Thanks for your input.  Curly

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2021, 07:35:31 PM »
Curly, there a couple of things that can help.  It is possible that your frizzen spring is not applying enough force on the frizzen to prevent it from snapping back.  to correct this problem, remove the frizzen spring, heat it red, and spread the arms of the spring just a bit.  Then polish it bright, heat it bright red and quench it in oil.  Again, re-polish it, being aware that it is glass hard now and will break if you flex the arms at all, or even drop it onto concrete.  Draw the temper ...  I do this on a copper plate that is roughly 3" square x 1/4" thick.  I drill a small hole part way through to accommodate the tit on the back of the spring, lay it flat, and heat the copper from the bottom with a propane torch.  I hold the copper plate in my machinist's vise by two corners.  I put a drop of motor oil on the plate as a heat indicator...when the oil starts to smoke, you're getting close to the heat you need.  Watch the colours slowly change on the brightly polished spring.  First it'll turn yellow, then a darker straw colour, then purple...slow down with the heat - back it away, and watch the spring turn dark blue, then pale blue.  If you haven't overheated the plate, you can just leave the spring on the plate til it cools, but you don't want to anneal the spring much further, so you can remove the spring with tweezers, and place it on a wooden board to cool.  When you can pick it up with bare fingers, you can install it on the lock and try it for action with the frizzen.  This should take care of the re-bounding frizzen problem.
Another thing that might help is to file/grind some metal off the frizzen's stop...the part of the frizzen that contacts the frizzen string and stops the frizzen from rotating further.  This will allow the frizzen to rotate just a bit further forward, allowing the spring to apply more pressure on the foot of the frizzen, ie:  that part of the frizzen that rides on the spring and keeps it closed on the pan.
Do not file metal off your mainspring...it is supposed to be stiff and strong.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline flehto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2021, 08:19:07 PM »
I had the same problem w/ a small Siler. My problem was caused by the frizzen not toggling over and coming back. This problem was caused by a short flint  because of the space between the hammer and frizzen and after a few shots, the flint wore down and didn't toggle over  the frizzen .....the new small Siler has this corrected. To correct this I opened the frizzen to the toggle point , marked the frizzen  toe position on the frizzen spring and w/ a small grinding wheel in a Dremel ground a .015  high  "hump" or cam at the mark...... the frizzen then  toggled over and the problem was solved......Fred

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2021, 02:02:36 PM »
Hi Curly,
The advice above is for 2 very different problems.  Taylor's is correct if the frizzen is actually bouncing back.  One way to assure that is the problem is to put a bit of masking tape on the frizzen spring where the curl of the frizzen hits when fully open.  After firing look to see if the tape is dimpled by getting hit by the frizzen.  If the frizzen is just not opening far enough then flehto's advice is appropriate.  If I recall. both locks have a roller in the frizzen and a little hump on the frizzen spring.  If rebound is really the issue, you could also grind away a little of the front side of the hump (side nearest the pan) to make it steeper locking the frizzen in the open position.  However, you first must make sure rebound is the problem and not just the frizzen is not opening fully.  If the frizzen is not opening fully then you can either grind down the front edge of the hump on the spring to lessen the pressure of the spring on the roller or grind the bevel and top leaf of the spring to weaken it.  You could also heat and close the bend a little to weaken it but you have to harden and temper it again.  Finally Curly, L&R locks are usually crudely finished when purchased. Before doing anything, give the roller and the hump on the frizzen spring a good polish as well as the sides of the frizzen where the screw hole is and the corresponding ineer surfaces of the lock plate and pan bridle.  Then do the tape test and that should tell you what the problem is.

dave

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2021, 02:29:47 PM »
Hi guys. I have a terrible problem with my frizzen bouncing back and crushing my flint. Last shoot, I only got off 3 shots before I had to change flints. Any ideas on how to remedy this problem? This is the second time its happened to me. Both are L&R locks. One Dures Egg, and the new Bails lock. L&R are no help in this mat ter :-\.
Thanks for your input.  Curly

The maker of the lock is no help? That seems odd.I have used the L&R external parts for their Small Manton,
Durs Egg and Ashmore with no reported problems with the frizzen springs.Maybe these springs are now made
from a substandard material or the tempering is not right and the springs are soft.The mainsprings I made are
strong but limber and are forged,not a foundry item.Close the frizzen and push it forward and if it opens with
only mild resistance then it is a weak spring problem. The locks I made as I recall all had strong frizzen springs
that took a good strike to open them and they stayed open.
Bob Roller

Offline little joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2021, 06:57:03 PM »
Make your top leather for your flint as long as possible, When the frizzen rebounds it will hit leather instead of the flint.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2021, 07:22:50 PM »
LJ:  I tried that leather trick but didn't like it because the extra leather became burnt and useless for this purpose in very short order. 
Another check to see if the frizzen is rebounding onto the top of the flint is to put transfer colour onto the bottom of the pan cover of the frizzen, and masking tape on to top of the flint.  Fire the lock.  If the frizzen is rebounding and striking the flint, it'll leave a black/blue mark on the masking tape. Then the mechanics of the lock need adjusting to eliminate the rebounding feature.
Without a frizzen spring, the rebounding of the frizzen upon firing the lock can be so strong that it bends and/or breaks the screw that holds the frizzen to the plate.  That would be your worst case scenario.  Conversely, you frizzen spring can be so strong that the falling cock cannot open the frizzen at all and the flint ends up jammed into the frizzen's face.
When a lock is tuned nicely, the frizzen opens under the force of the frizzen spring when the heel of the pan cover is about 3/8" off the pan.  The force of the frizzen spring pushing up on the frizzen forces it open and holds it there once the frizzen has gone through its arc.  To prevent the frizzen from rebounding, the spring must be of sufficient strength to hold the frizzen in the open position.  But getting it there requires that the bearing surfaces be highly polished and true.
I had issues with my Chambers' late Ketland lock on my Kuntz build, frizzen rebounding and smashing flints, one after the next.  I solved the issue by replacing the roller on the frizzen with one of a larger diameter, making the spring work harder and over a longer travel, re-arching the spring to increase its power, and by reducing the frizzen's contact stop allowing the frizzen to rotate just a little further.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2021, 01:50:05 AM »
Look at antique flinters. Most of them show their frizzen faces nearly on the same plain as the barrel when the frizzen is at rest. I don’t care what else you’ve got going on, your frizzen is not going to snap back from that, and break your flint. Very few modern locks allow the frizzen to move that far forward. I had this same problem years ago, and fooled around balancing springs, and polishing contact points, and heaven knows what else. One day I was helping a club member stop a set of steel targets from rebounding when they were hit high on the target. All of a sudden the light bulb came on, and I realized that the stop on the back of the target was the culprit, and the stop on my frizzen was also.

 Hungry Horse

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2021, 02:24:15 AM »
I'm wondering what's really going on here. 

I had an L&R "Manton" lock (the small one) years ago, and the frizzen would bounce back, and it whacked the top of the top jaw (there was a very convincing mark there, proving it). 

Are you shooting with the "bevel down"?  I never understood how anyone could shoot this way, as this way is basically backwards, because you are hitting the flint the wrong direction... the same way you would knap it.  Firing it this way may be causing your flint self-destruction.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 03:20:43 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2021, 02:55:21 AM »
Some interesting hypothesis. :)
I don think I've ever seen a lock's cock that rotated so far over, that the top jaw would be hit by the frizzen & I have a couple locks that put the
 flint into the pan below the vent or just above it, yet the top jaw could not be hit by rotating the frizzen back over onto the flint. That it would hit
if it flopped back like the thread suggests.
BTW- the flint going that far down being close to the vent, gets burnt smooth on the leading corner/edge.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 03:01:03 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3702
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2021, 04:23:08 AM »
Your experience is interesting Taylor.  I have experience with a Chambers Late Ketland lock.  Excellent lock at everything but flint life.  It would snaggle-tooth knap and break the flint in maybe 5 shots.  After much contradictory information on spring poundages and solutions, I tried the extended leather idea.  Worked like a charm and still does.  No charred leathers, and flints last probably 30-40 shots with no breakages. 

I bow to your vast experience Taylor, but I can say that in one case the extended leather worked.  Cheap and easy to try, so no real harm done.  Perhaps it is the leather thickness or type?

God Bless,   Marc

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2021, 04:29:36 AM »
I believe the roller frizzen also contributes to that problem.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2021, 03:48:46 PM »
Flint locks are like us and no two alike.I have made a bunch of them of different styles
and some will fire with the flint being bevel side up and then an "identical"lock works best
with the bevel side down.I used the German white agates because of their uniform dimensions
and still had locks that seemed to be opposite in preference.I always sent the lock to the buyer
with a flint in place and ready to test.I recall only one,a Ketland that would rebound and break
a flint and it was due to a flawed frizzen spring.It worked fine off the gun but not on it and I
never figured that out to my own satisfaction.
Daryl's experiences with different locks reflects mine.Some locks put the edge of the flint much
lower and the theory was to slam the fire into the pan and I recall the 16 bore Manton of Tom
Dawson doing that.THAT Manton fired like a caplock and when tested it rolled sizzling white fire
into the tiny pan.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 04:33:47 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline StevenV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2021, 06:04:20 PM »
I have experienced that and by installing the flint with bevel down, it seems to eliminate it considerably. Also with bevel down it is the correct way to install since  the lock function is all about geometry and with bevel down it that helps the geometry theory.         Steve

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2021, 11:55:08 PM »
Curly, if you don't want to experiment with possible solutions yourself, Brad Emig offers a lock tuning service.  www.cabincreek.net

Offline Clint

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: frizzed backlash
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2021, 04:37:55 AM »
Most frizzens are ground with an inside radius on the face. If the center of that radius is high, the bottom edge of the frizzen could be catching the flint just as the spring flips it open. This can cause the frizzen to stall, it may also bust the edge off of the flint. A tiny bit of relief, ground across the lowest part of the strike face might give some relief. Grinding the tail stop is a good idea, even if you don't have spring back problems. It gives extra room for easy priming and cleaning.