Stuck Nipple

[Craig Wilcox]

Been working on restoring an elderly 10-bore.  Has  W. Afflerbach  Phila on the lock, small oval plate opposite side has J. H. Parker Phila

So, guessing it was either made or hung out in Philly, probably 1845-1870 or so.  Really pretty good condition.  I have polished up the external a bit, and went through the lock, lubing and oiling things that move.  Steel wooled most of the white metal furnishing, stock, etc., then couple good coats of wax.

Cleaned up the barrel inside and out, and noted that the nipple was severely eroded.  I have several sizes in my little boxes, so got the nipple wrench on it after applying some thin oil (WD-40).  Doggone nipple wrench gave up a bit, after also heating the nipple.  Can't get any other tool on it.

I have annealed the nipple wrench, and will get it back in proper shape, and re-heat treat, temper, etc.  I no longer have any EZ outs, so a trip to Ace tomorrow will help.

What diameter drill to drill down into the nipple?  It has 1/4" dia threads, but I have no idea on tpi at this time.  Thinking of a 3/16" drill bit.

Does anyone here have any hints or tips?  Would really like to try this sweet smoothbore out.  Couldn't detect any choke in the muzzle, so might also be good for PRB shooting.   And I imagine that a 1.6 oz ball may just have a wee bit of recoil to it.  Got to see if I can be those Sapergia fellas at smoothbore shooting.

[Scota4570]

I would clean up the flats on the nipple and make a on of wrench before I went to an easy out.  It would be my luck that the nipple would get a hard spot when drilling and or the easy out would snap off. 

I'd hit the nipple only for a 5 count with an oxy acetylene torch using a 00 tip.  Do not melt the rib solder!  Then submerge the breech in a mix of acetone and ATF for a day.  Then try again, but tap the end of nipple wrench with a tiny hammer for a while to break up the rust.  After that the nipple should come out easy if you can get solid purchase. 

Good luck

[smylee grouch]

I have one just like that, that I want to remove too. I am curious if trying to heat the steel around the base of the nipple would work better than trying to heat the nipple it self. Any thoughts on that approach?

[Bsharp]

Soak it as stated above, then 'mild' heat.

EZ-out is the last resort, do not use the swirled ones, find a set of the straight flute ones.

They will not expand and bind the nipple.

[kutter]

For a 1/4" x ? thread nipple, I'd drill right thru the stuck nipple with a #10 or #11 drill.
That'll be large enough to make the remaining thread wall weak and easy to collapse with a small pick or chisel. Then turn the junk piece out.

The #10 or 11 drill will be small enough to miss the existing threads in the drum/bolster.

[Scota4570]

Only if the drill follows the center of the nipple.......

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Before I put any heat or tool to that nipple again, I would soak the nipple and breech in Automatic Tranny Fluid and Acetone for a week.  In the mean time, make yourself a nipple wrench that won't let you down.
I took a short length of 3/8" diameter drill rod, bored a hole into the business end with a drill bit to clear the tube of the nipple, and then sawed and filed the notch to go down over the shoulder of the nipple.  As it is at this stage, it is a nipple wrench, but will fail on you when trying to remove a stubborn nipple.  Even heat treating the drill rod will not help much...it'll likely fail, and worse, screw up the shoulder of the nipple so that drilling is your only resource.
The next step makes a wrench that'll not fail.  Turn a short length of tube out of steel that'll just slip over the 3/8" shank of the wrench, and silver solder it to the wrench.  Now you have a wrench that will not flair open or twist the ears off, will stay put on the nipple and will allow you to even put a cheater on the other end of the wrench.  Here's one of the ones I made.

[Scota4570]

The next step makes a wrench that'll not fail.  Turn a short length of tube out of steel that'll just slip over the 3/8" shank of the wrench, and silver solder it to the wrench.  Now you have a wrench that will not flair open or twist the ears off, will stay put on the nipple and will allow you to even put a cheater on the other end of the wrench.  Here's one of the ones I made.

That is awesome. I'm sure to use that some day.

I really, really wish they made modern nipples with a hex head to fit a mechanics wrench or deep socket.  It seems like a no brainer. 

[WadePatton]

I know I've shared this 10x or more, but it seems regularly forgotten. A very old trick I learned for any sort of stuck fastener or fitting with Right Hand threads--is a LEFT HAND drill bit. 

Once you've done it, nothing else makes sense.  It works so well because the friction of drilling not only generates heat, but also vibrations, as well as torque in the direction needed. It's also making relief as it goes.

The better (independent) auto supply houses often carry them for the mechanics that know (and taught me) this trick. Of course any industrial supplier should have LHDB's as well.

It totally eliminates the process of drilling to fit the EZ out and then turning the Ez left-handed.  Just drill LH and be done.  HTH

And yes I'd soak it as Taylor suggests as well.

[Hungry Horse]

 Wade beat me to it, but left handed drills are the ticket. When I worked in an industrial supply store we used to sell a small set that had the drill bits and corresponding easy outs. I think it only had four or five sizes, and was a real life saver on projects like this. A good long soaking in something designed to break loose rusted stuff like Areo-Kroil would be recommended as well.

  Hungry Horse

[Craig Wilcox]

Well, once again my pals on the forum have come through!  Taylor, I will definitely round up a piece of tubing to solder onto my nipple wrench.  Make it into a proper socket wrench,  The wrench I  have now is one I made las year, just about as you suggested.  Used a Dremel with a diamond blade to make the ears, then filed to size.  It is fairly tight on the nipple flats.  Last night I got it back into shape and hardened it again.  Planning on tempering it in the oven, but first going to find a short piece of 3/8" ID steel tube.  Wouldn't do to solder the tube on after finishing the tempering.

Yeah, the left-hand drill bits are the cat's meow for getting tight things to loosen up.  Have to go to ACE anyway, I'll check out their EZ out stuff.

Hmmmm. Tranny fluid and acetone.  Sounds slippery.  I believe transmission fluid originated with sperm whale oil; folks wanted something really slick in the tranny, while not killing off all the big sperm whales.

Thanks again, guys - all y'all are the best.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The thickness of the sleeve you silver solder to the wrench is not important.  It just has to fit into the cavity where the nipple is seated, and on a patent or hooked breech, that area is restricted.  The sleeve need be no more than 1/32" thick.  I made mine on my lathe, but wouldn't hesitate to create one on my drill press if I had to.  the nipple on a drum has much more room around it so the sleeve could be considerably thicker there.

[Craig Wilcox]

Taylor, this one has the snail, and I have noted that access to this particular one is limited.

An odd thing that I noted yesterday, is that there is a center-punch mark on the side of the barrel that marks exactly where one would drill a touch hole.  Odd, as I would have to re-breech it to get rid of both the snail and the small, Nock-type powder hole in the current breech.  And I'd almost be willing to bed that the threads would be that darned Whitworth type.  Had some of those on my old Triumph Spitfire, what a pain in the mechanic's (me) backside!

[Bob Roller]

My Whitworth long range rifle had 1/4x28 US threads for the nipple.I had a good bunch of Whitworth wrenches and sockets back in my English car days with MG's,Morris,Riley and Jaguar plus a few now obscure ones.I think they vanished when I was in the Army and by then I was done with English cars.One joke about the Jaguars was that they only run on Thursdays and rusted into the ground the rest of the time. .
The idea of nipples for muzzle loaders with a hexagon  has been done and I had a few when I was still in middle school about 70 years ago.

Bob Roller

[kutter]

Only if the drill follows the center of the nipple.......

Use a drill press & a center drill set up.. 
I didn't think it was necessary to include that bit of info.


I would use the same set up (drill press, ect) if using a LH drill bit to try and loosen and turn the piece out..

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Craig:  when I build a rifle with a hooked breech, like a Hawken, I spend some time grinding out the nipple seat area to accommodate a wrench.  Many of the castings don't take that into consideration, but one has to polish that area anyway, so why not enlarge the area to fit a wrench.

[Craig Wilcox]

Taylor, this is a 10-bore built in Philadelphia sometime prior to the War Between the States.  Very reluctant to do more than replace the nipple with a more modern, 4-sided wrenching area instead of the two-sided broken one it has now.  Just would not feel comfortable doing that.

I got two sizes of EZ outs, going to let it soak another day and giver it a try.  I do have a friend a few miles south with a whole machine shop.  So if I can't get it out, I will take the job to him.