soldering around the pan

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I have a Chambers roundface flintlock (the plain one w/o the water-proof pan) that has a gap between pan and frizzen.  It's not a really big gap, just enough that I can see daylight when I hold it up just so.

I was thinking of roughing up the pan a bit to wear off the charcoal bluing & then silver-soldering around the pan & inside the pan.  Then I could polish the silver solder bright.

Is there a way to make the solder stick to the pan, but not to the frizzen?

I was thinking of this because, that would be the easiest way to get a perfect fit between frizzen and pan.  Just clamp the frizzen to the pan, solder around it, then remove the frizzen.  But I'm afraid that once the solder sets it the frizzen and pan won't part.

I'm also leary that the heat would ruin the temper of the frizzen, although that can be fixed again.

[keweenaw]

What you want to do is to do a final fitting of the pan to the frizzen.  Make sure the pan cover part of the frizzen is flat, it should be.  If not stone it on a nice flat stone until it's flat, at least around the edges.  Put the frizzen back on the lock and put a thin coating of an indicator blue on it around the edges that should bear on the pan (prussian blue, available at about any auto parts store.) Shut the frizzen and then open it to see where the high spots are on the pan - blue spots.  The pan is soft so you can file off the high spots with a small (6") mill file.  Just take off a tiny bit.  Close the pan again, check, file ,etc.  eventually you'll get it to hit evenly all around the pan.  This will be much, much easier to do than what you've proposed and since the pan fit is very close already shouldn't take half an hour. 

Tom

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I wouldn't worry about it. 

[Acer Saccharum]

You will have to close the frizzen, note the contact areas, then open it up, and file only the spots where the frizzen touches the pan.

Coat the underside of the frizzen with an even coating of artist's oil paint. When the parts touch, the paint will transfer to the pan, showing the spots where metal needs to be removed.

tom

[Acer Saccharum]

Not worry?

Never thought of that. 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Thanks guys.

I tried the filing-down-the-high-spots thing.  It seemed like my clumsey ways made the "problem" worse.  In other words I could see more daylight.

I thought maybe I took too much metal off the pan until it was past a point where the frizzen began to angle downward.  So I thought of this "building up" idea.

I'll take a closer look and see if I can get it to fit tight by apply more careful filing work.

[keweenaw]

Like I said, take off only tiny amounts and only where the high spots are.  You need a fine mill file, you need to hold the lock firmly in the vise and a steady hand to not cut where you don't want to.  And you absolutely need a good indicator to see where the high spots are.  But Taylor is correct that for the most part that tiny space makes no difference whatsoever.  That's not a rainproof pan and even a perfect fit won't keep out all moisture if it's really wet out.  The hardest part is knowing when to quit as as you get close it will hit almost everywhere and that's when it's very difficult to keep things flat.

Tom

[J. Talbert]

I'm with Taylor.  I wouldn't worry about it unless it is horribly obvious.  It only takes a couple thousandths gap to show daylight, and as you suggest,  efforts to correct it can sometimes do more harm if not done carefully.

On this subject... It's my theory that the primary purpose of the little projection on the bottom of L&R frizzens is to block the daylight.  I can't see how it performs any other function, except possibly easing the alignment process during initial assembly.

Jeff

[Stophel]

It used to just absolutely worry the far out of me if the frizzen did not fit perfectly. But I got over it.  Unless the frizzen is sitting on the pan horribly crookedly, I don't worry about it.  It is totally irrelevant.

Besides, you can fit the frizzen down just so, and then when you put the springs on, everything flexes, and it doesn't fit the same anymore.  Don't worry about it.   

[caliber45]

Atta-boy, Taylor. Talk some sense to 'em. We get so caught up in minutia and excessive "sorta-precision" that we lose sight of the fact that this ain't rocket science, folks (and forgive my sarcasm and cliche).  It's old-time science, and it's SUPPOSED to be old-time science. If you wanta make it "today" science, drag out the lasers and stuff and convert, and shoot them "straight-line" black powder vehicles. But if you want to enjoy and deal with the "old days," leave it in the old days. Just my two cents. -- paulallen, tucson

3+

[northmn]

I wouldn't worry about it. 

If it holds the priming while you carry it, Taylor's quite correct.  You get more problems with crud from flashing a pan to clear the rifle after storage.  I have to clean around the pan before taking a rifle out hunting just from that, or prime them with 3f while carrying them   I have a couple that have a hairline gap, but hold the primer when carrying them and they work.  Especially if you have to take the lock off and hold it to the light to see it.

DP 

[Don Getz]

With any of Jim's locks you shouldn't have to do any of that.  It sounds like you may have already tried to fix it and only
made it worse.  If that is the case, you can try to keep on filing and try to get a good fit.  If you totally screw it up, Jim will be happy to sell you a new one.  Next time, don't worry about a little daylight, say to yourself, "how much powder can leak thru that little crack".............Don

[Acer Saccharum]

I often get hung up on the details. This discussion is a good sanity check.

Even if the fit between pan and frizzen is really tight, water can still get in. As long as powder can't get out, the fit is good.

Another thing I NEVER thought about until Jeff T mentioned it, was the L&R locks with the rebated rim around the pan. You can't see the light, no matter what the fit up is like. Makes life a lot easier.

[J.D.]

Personally, I like a good fit between the pan and frizzen, however, it really isn't necessary. I'm just anal when it comes to fits.

I also use hot red lipstick for color transfer, bought at the dollar store for buck. Cheap enough, readily available, and it really shows the high spots.

The wife wanted to know why on earth I wanted hot red lipstick? I just blew here a kiss. Her response was "you're weird". 

God bless

[jwh1947]

A general note on "gussying things up."  Occasionally I get a gut notion that many of the concerns that blackpowder enthusiasts have regarding precision, ignition time, barrel accuracy, etc. are overblown and sometimes imaginary.  I've had people tell me that some of our noted custom barrel makers produce barrels that "don't shoot" but with special personal re-rifling they are tack drivers.  I ask, how many people would notice the difference that you supposedly created?  I would believe this only if I were given a pre and post test opportunity to shoot the rifle myself.  A bunch of targets shoved in my face tell me absolutely nothing other than that you have a point to prove.  I apologize for my blatant skepticism.  Anyway, how many people can hold that tightly, offhand with a flint rifle?  I want to see it with my own eyes.  I have served on my Commonwealth's high power rifle team, and I have heard many testimonies and "fish stories" that did not prove out on the firing line, and ours were minute-of-angle tuned service rifles used by skilled marksmen who knew what they were doing and were where they were because they beat the competition for a slot on the team.

If you buy a Chambers lock or Getz barrel, it should work out of the box.  As you apparently found out, you run the possibility of magnifying a problem rather than "fixing" it.   Just last month I had to refit an otherwise decent lock that a clown "stoned' out of timing.  Just had to lighten that trigger and make 'er better.  If, for some reason, you encounter a problem, talk to the vendor.  They have a reputation of keeping happy customers.  Your lock left the maker's bench with that tiny gap because they concluded that it was unimportant.  Just my take on things after reading about all the fiddling with the functional.  On the other hand, this gives work to those of us with a bench. 
JWH

[LRB]

  Jerry, no disrespect, or anything near it, but why were you supplied with MOA rifles, while on the rifle team, if it did not matter? I like a rifle to shoot as well as possible, so that when I miss, I know it was me.

[Dphariss]

I have a Chambers roundface flintlock (the plain one w/o the water-proof pan) that has a gap between pan and frizzen.  It's not a really big gap, just enough that I can see daylight when I hold it up just so.

I was thinking of roughing up the pan a bit to wear off the charcoal bluing & then silver-soldering around the pan & inside the pan.  Then I could polish the silver solder bright.

Is there a way to make the solder stick to the pan, but not to the frizzen?

I was thinking of this because, that would be the easiest way to get a perfect fit between frizzen and pan.  Just clamp the frizzen to the pan, solder around it, then remove the frizzen.  But I'm afraid that once the solder sets it the frizzen and pan won't part.

I'm also leary that the heat would ruin the temper of the frizzen, although that can be fixed again.

Using felt tip markers as "inletting black" and files and scrapers I fit the pan to the lock plate. Most of the metal removal is from the pan. The frizzen sometimes needs some truing up to get a good fit.
Install the frizzen on the plate and "paint" the contact area of  the pan work the frizzen back and forth to get a indication of the contact points on the pan. Scrap/file the contact area, re-color and do it again.
Solder is not going to work as you want as the softer material with be beaten up by snapping the frizzen closed.


This is one of the same scrapers being used on wood.


These I make from O-1 tool steel flat stock in various widths to suit what I think I need at the time..
Dan

[J.D.]

I prefer to fit a frizzen to the pan with the frizzen spring in place, to snap the frizzen down on the pan. IMHO, keeping the frizzen spring in place while fitting the frizzen prevents gaps, once the pressure of the spring is added.

God bless