Wooden patch box lid end cap

[JLayne]

I’m working on a Kibler Colonial kit I received this week. All is going well, except I bungled the brass end cap on the wooden patch box lid. I used files to shorten the end so the brass cap would fit the lid flush with the butt plate. I was a bit timid about using a saw to shorten it, fearing I might end up breaking what appears to be a fragile piece. However, I didn’t get the length quite short enough when I filed it, and I compounded the mistake by adding some epoxy to the brass end piece, figuring I would just file the brass thickness down a smidge to match the level of the butt plate. Well, then I found the release spring didn’t want to seat over the end of the brass cap, so I filed some more off the cap, and some more, etc., until I actually broke through the end along the bottom edge of the lid. I finally got it to fit with the release working properly, but it looks like dookie, so I will be ordering a replacement lid to try again. Any advice that would help me get the length right on the next attempt would be appreciated. I’ve built a couple kits, but this was a first attempt at adding a brass end piece on a wooden lid.

Thanks in advance.

Jay

[smylee grouch]

Are you saying that the lid is now too short? If so could you add a very small chip to the front of the dove tail so lid wouldn't go forward as much or did I mis- understand the problem?

[JLayne]

Hi Smylee grouch,

No, the lid now fits, but I had to file so much thickness off the brass end piece to get the release to work that it broke through the brass (see the lower edge of the lid in the photo). And since the brass end piece is now epoxied onto the lid, it’s permanent. So I need a do-over on the lid/end piece, and I was wondering if anybody had any advice on how not to bugle the length on the second try.

Thanks.
Jay

[mikeyfirelock]

Try a little heat on the brass end and see if that will loosen the piece,  don’t use direct flame…….heat a piece of metal and use it to transfer the heat to the end, see if that will loosen it.  Then use it as a pattern to cut a new end piece out of sheet brass..   I would   attach the new end with small screws

[flinchrocket]

Jay, could you post a picture of the bottom of the lid showing the spring attachment?

[Birddog6]

Just take the screw out of the lid, heat a soldering iron (a real one) or a piece off metal Red Hot, hold it to the brass piece & warm it good & the epoxy should release.  Cut & fit a new piece of brass & attach with screw. DON'T epoxy it until you are Sure it fits good, looks right, works, etc.
Take the latch bar off while you fit the brass piece to the lid & buttplate, as it's just in the way. Then fit the latch bar back into the lid & make it fit in the stock & latch.
If it doesn't quite latch going back in, file a little off the latch towards the operating knob. If you bungle it up you just get a replacement latch, no big deal.  Don't force the lid in place.  You may get it latched & can't get it loose. 

Patchbox lids can be a PITA at times, especially wood ones.  And if it isn't latched good, you go hunting & get ready to go home & all of a sudden you realize you bumped the latch & lost the dang lid, Someplace.  .  You ever try to find a patchbox lid in the dark ?     Don't waste your time, just go back the next day. 

[smart dog]

Hi JLayne,
I just did one of these on a Kibler kit.  The pre-inlet spring catch with its screw hole already drilled is a problem and I wish Jim would not inlet it if the user is going to fit an end cap on the lid.  I would not order a replacement lid but make my own from scratch.  It actually would be easier.  Anyway, fit the lid with no end piece and with the spring in place.  Remove the spring and evenly remove about 1/16" to 3/32" from the back of the lid. Remember, the cap has to slant a little to match the butt plate. Don't be afraid to go a little too far.  Fit the end cap with 2 screws, not one like you did and make it a little over sized for the wood. Don't glue anything until it is all done and fitted.  File the metal to fit into the butt plate and push the lid in all the way. If the end cap sticks out a little you can do 2 things.  You can file it flush to the butt plate but only if just a tiny bit needs to come off.  If it sticks out more than a hair, then file a little off the front of the dovetailed base of the lid so it can go in further.  Go very slow and check frequently. If the lid slides in too far, glue a thin shim of wood to the front of the lid's dovetailed base.  This is a little complicated because Jim angles that front edge to slip under a front dovetail that holds the front down snugly against the wood. However, you still can glue a shim and make it work.  Once fitted in all the way, try to install the spring.  If it rubs on the brass plate, don't file the plate.  Instead, file a little off the back of the head of the spring until it clears.  You will need a small triangular file to do that.   One last bit of advice, the patch box lid fit is very precise on the Kiblers, too precise in my opinion and it risks jamming after finish is applied or during high humidity. I scrape the dovetails on the lid to loosen that fit a bit before I finish it.  This thread shows a properly installed end cap and may help you with other tasks.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=66614.0
dave   

[JLayne]

Thanks all. I already ordered a replacement lid this morning (actually, two, just in case), and will do what you suggest. Also, someone asked for a pic of the underside of the box lid, which is below.

[JLayne]

Hi JLayne,
I just did one of these on a Kibler kit.  The pre-inlet spring catch with its screw hole already drilled is a problem and I wish Jim would not inlet it if the user is going to fit an end cap on the lid.  I would not order a replacement lid but make my own from scratch.  It actually would be easier.  Anyway, fit the lid with no end piece and with the spring in place.  Remove the spring and evenly remove about 1/16" to 3/32" from the back of the lid. Remember, the cap has to slant a little to match the butt plate. Don't be afraid to go a little too far.  Fit the end cap with 2 screws, not one like you did and make it a little over sized for the wood. Don't glue anything until it is all done and fitted.  File the metal to fit into the butt plate and push the lid in all the way. If the end cap sticks out a little you can do 2 things.  You can file it flush to the butt plate but only if just a tiny bit needs to come off.  If it sticks out more than a hair, then file a little off the front of the dovetailed base of the lid so it can go in further.  Go very slow and check frequently. If the lid slides in too far, glue a thin shim of wood to the front of the lid's dovetailed base.  This is a little complicated because Jim angles that front edge to slip under a front dovetail that holds the front down snugly against the wood. However, you still can glue a shim and make it work.  Once fitted in all the way, try to install the spring.  If it rubs on the brass plate, don't file the plate.  Instead, file a little off the back of the head of the spring until it clears.  You will need a small triangular file to do that.   One last bit of advice, the patch box lid fit is very precise on the Kiblers, too precise in my opinion and it risks jamming after finish is applied or during high humidity. I scrape the dovetails on the lid to loosen that fit a bit before I finish it.  This thread shows a properly installed end cap and may help you with other tasks.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=66614.0
dave   

Hi Dave,
When you remove wood from the back of the lid to make room for the brass end plate, do you cut it off or file it? If cut, what sort of saw do you use?

Thanks,
Jay

[smart dog]

Hi,
I rasped it off with a pattern makers rasp and then smoothed things with a half round file.  I drew 1/16" border all the way around the lid to act as a guide and preserve the shape.  I filed to the lines.

dave 

[Frank]

Install the lid without a brass end piece. Many originals were done that way. That’s how I did mine. Very easy and looks good.

[flinchrocket]

I just wanted to see how the spring attachment was set up. I was going to suggest taking the spring off until you get the lid finished, Dave has pretty well covered everything for you.

[JLayne]

Thanks again all. I’ve got to two new lids coming. I’m going to try Dave’s approach with lid one and see how it works. If that goes bad, I’ll have an extra to fit without the brass end cap (which is what I did on a prior Kibler kit, and things went without a hitch. I just wanted to try something new on this one). If I end up with an extra, I will use it as a model for shaping one from scratch on another build someday.

Best,
Jay

[smart dog]

Hi Jay,
Good luck and just take wood away slowly.  It won't take very much.

dave

[kutter]

Put an electric soldering iron on the old piece and let it heat it up to soften the epoxy. Then take the screw out and remove the old piece.

Then file the back end of the lid at a slight angle slanting the bottom edge inward 1/8"+,, or what ever extra brass you want to see across the bottom edge
of the lid when you flip it over.

Make that back edge of the wood perfectly flat so a new piece of brass lays flat on it.
Use a slightly thicker piece of brass, enough so that the bottom edge when up against the angled edge of the wood has enough stock to overlap the outside edge of the butplate.
The upper edge will be more than thick enough.

Mark, drill and attach the new piece of brass with the small wood screw but don't bother to counter sink/bore the hole for the head just yet as it'll be on the angled surface.

Once in place hold the brass there and scribe around it. Remove the plate and rough cut the outline leaving enough matrl for final file fitting to the wood surface.
REMEMBER that the brass is held in position at an angle on the part and the scribed lines around the edges of the lid are not perpendicular to the brass plate stock you are making the end cap from. Leave enough matrl.

Mount the new plate on the end of the lid this time with epoxy and replace the screw but use release agent on the screw. You want to be able to remove the screw.
Rough up the brass and lightly score the wood to give the glue more to hang on to.

Once hardened, remove the wood screw. Now you have a thicker piece of brass plate that needs to be filed back down to fit.
It will be filed thinner at the top of the cover but still leaving it thick enough to look like a brass plate.
Then file the thickness at the back of the plate to fit the catch spring.
You have plenty of brass thickness to work with now as the new plate increases in thickness to 1/8"+  at the bottom or what ever thickness you chose to make it.

Carefully work the brass down at the back till the cover snaps into position. Then finish up filing the end of the plate to a contour that matches/pleases the sweep of the butt plate at that point.

Now finish the wood screw up by counter sinking the hole in the brass plate. Putting a wood screw in place and facing it off.

[Not English]

Jay, every one's pretty much covered it. The only difference is that I use 2 flat head wood screws instead of one. I have one on each side of the latch. That really keeps the end cap in place while working it. Treat the 2 wood screw just like your single one. Unlike some of the people here I countersink the final screws just enough so that the slots will disappear when the screws are filed to match the end cap.

Dave

[flinchrocket]

Sometimes,I make nails from nickel silver rod and nail the end plate to the lid. I use 2 nails.