Origin of half stock .35 caliber percussion rifle

[VA HUNTER]

Hello,

I have recently aquired an antique .35 caliber half stock percussion rifle and I would like to learn what I can about it's origin. There is no visible name on the barrel, the lock is a Goulcher with the name Wm. Smith and Company stamped on the lock inner workings. I am not familiar enough with the rifle's style to confirm this but I was told by the seller it may have New York origins.
Any help I can get is appreciated, not expecting miracles or a value estimate, I am really just curious about the rifle's heritage.

Thanks

[Tanselman]

This rifle falls within the later half-stocked "generic" appearing rifles with strongly crescent butt plates made in many areas of the U.S. in the 1850s-1860s. The fact your rifle has had some modern work done to it makes it a little tougher to place. The tang looks like a modern replacement, filed screw heads look modern, as does the round forestock inlay for barrel pin. Pewter nose cap is not a common shape. We look for original details, sometimes subtle, to try to locate these similar/generic looking rifles.

A couple of usable details for identification include the slight "fish belly" or soft convex curve to the lower butt line, and the  side facing around the lock with a rather extended, "heavy" rear end. One view we do not have is the cheekpiece area or back side of butt. If the gun has a cheek, its shape and position on butt often can tell us something about the builder.

The slight fish belly on lower butt, plus elongated side facing, could easily be from New York, but that late style guard with double rear spur was used all over, from the East to the Midwest. This style rifle with slight fish belly could also be from Ohio, possibly Indiana, or elsewhere. If your gun has a cheekpiece, please post a picture of it. A picture of the rear ramrod pipe, taken from below so we can see the entire pipe and its flange, may also offer a clue, but overall, not a whole lot of details present to help us identify the gun's origin.

Shelby Gallien

[VA HUNTER]

Thank you for the information. This rifle has no cheek piece on left side of the buttstock. I attached a picture of this and one of a close up of the ramrod rear pipe.

Something I noticed that I had not seen before is a continuous pattern engraved in the barrel top flat from the rear sight to the tang. It looks to be a fish scale or snake scale pattern but is very faint, possibly nearly polished away during an earlier restoration or refinish of the rifle.

Thanks again for your reply, your knowledge and insight of muzzleloading firearms is quite impressive. I appreciate your assistance.

Jeff Condon

[Tanselman]

Thanks for taking the time to post additional pictures. The lack of a cheekpiece becomes more common the later a half-stocked rifle was made, but doesn't tell us anything about the maker. The flange on the rear ramrod pipe, to me at least, appears to be reshaped from a larger original flange that may have been damaged. It almost looks like I can see a larger mortise around the current flange, which if accurate, would support the possibility the original flange was modified and reduced in size to the current flange. I know owners love to know where their antique civilian rifles were made, but in this case, it is going to be almost impossible... unless there is any trace of a name or initials left on the top barrel flat several inches behind the rear sight. If you see anything there, let us know. The current position of the rear sight, about 5" behind the rear ramrod entry pipe, suggests the barrel may have been shortened during its working life, a common practice, perhaps as much as 5."      Shelby Gallien

[VA HUNTER]

Even though the origin can't be identified for now it's not a total loss. The possibility it could be an Indiana gun means I may have a rifle from my home state. That's worth something to me.

Does the scale pattern I mentioned sound like something that could be original? It seems this gun has undergone many changes, I guess the scale engraving could be post build.

Thank you again for your time.

Jeff Condon

[Hungry Horse]

 Very interesting gun. And, the reference to Indiana jogged my memory. I have a gun that the family swears was built in Lakeport California, the only problem is the barrel is stamped J.Rogers Elkhart Indiana. But the Elkhart Indiana stamp is over stamped with the J, Rogers stamp. So, I suspect John Rogers while on his trip to San Louis Abispo  California, where he eventually established a gun shop, stopped in Lakeport, and possibly stocked up a rifle from used parts to sell, and possibly getting those parts he needed from Charlie Slotterbeck.
 The gun I have is a walnut half stock with no cheek piece, a little perch belly on the underside of the butt, a relatively short forearm, with a small poured nosecap, and a single barrel key positioned on the forward end of the forstock. My gun has no underrib which creates a problem when you need an under lug, or a staple, for the barrel key. Charles Slotterbecks guns traditionally have no underrib. The workaround on my gun is that the barrel is heavy 1 1/8” across the flats, and only .36 caliber, so a slot for the wedge was cut through the bottom flat of the barrel. The triggerguard, an buttplate are iron, and the same style as those used by Slotterbeck, but a little more robust than those used in Lakeport. I suspect these parts may have been left over from when Charlie worked in San Francisco, when his guns were a bit more robust.
 So what I’m saying is if I were going to start looking for a possible builder of your gun, I would start in Elkhart Indiana.

  Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 I do suspect that the nose cap end of the fore stock is mostly modern. The odd shape of the nosecap, and the use of brass for the barrel pin, suggest this is likely. The rear entry pipe obviously has been either reworked, or replaced. The barrel tang appears to be a fix for some missing wood.
 How is the inside of the barrel? If its good, or fixable, this might make a nice shooter.

  Hungry Horse

[VA HUNTER]

Hungry Horse,

Thanks for the reply, I value everyones input to my questions. This rifle appears to have undergone many changes including a barrel length reduction as evidenced by the barrel/stock pin relocation and rework around the nose cap. I also noticed some very well done grafting of wood around the lock, it took a 10x magnifying glass to notice it. Perhaps something catastrophic forced the barrel reduction and stock repair.

I have scoped the bore, it is very clean with good rifling. I intend to make this one a shooter. The balance and weight are not perfect for my aging shoulders but it will likely to be less noticeable as I carry it more. I suppose a rebore to .40 caliber would lessen the nose weight but I dont want to alter the gun until I know more about it's heritage.

I am curious about the fish or snake scale engraving on the barrel top flat behind the rear sight running to the breech. Just wandering if this had some function or was purely decorative and might help ID the maker. If you know of any on publications I should seek out for researching Indiana rifle makers I would appreciate the leads.

Thanks again,

Jeff Condon

[Tanselman]

Jeff,  I cannot see the "fish scale" engraving on the barrel, since detail in photos seems to blur it. I would guess that it was a later addition by the restorer to make the gun look a little fancier, despite all the work/refinish done to it.

There is only one current book on Indiana gunmakers. It is out of print and expensive, if you can find a copy. it's titled "Gunmakers of Indiana" by Albert Lindert, published back in the 1960s. That book has very few photographs and only short entries, and would be of no value to you. Jeff Jaeger of Indiana has a much better researched and updated book, "Indiana Gunsmiths" that is currently at the printers and should be out in another month or two. He has illustrated many different Indiana rifles, all with fine photography in full color, and I believe it will be priced about $90.

However, I doubt Jeff's book will be of help to you in actually identifying your rifle. You may see illustrated rifles with a slight "fish belly" curve in the lower butt and stock architecture somewhat like yours, but as stated earlier, those couple of details were widely used in several states, and without more original details on your rifle to see the gunmaker's actual style and handiwork, it is very difficult to identify your rifle. Original details like the tang, rear pipe, cheekpiece length/shape can at times help identify these later, generic appearing rifles. Any trace of a name, initials or marks on the top barrel flat several inches behind the rear sight is always the best detail to help identify this type of rifle. But when restoration has altered or removed these original details on rather plain rifles, there just isn't enough left to identify the specific gunmaker with any degree of accuracy.  Shelby Gallien

[VA HUNTER]

Thanks for the lead on Mr. Jaeger's book. As a Hoosier now living in Virginia I am sure I will learn much from this forum about gun makers from both areas. I am not sure if shooting or collecting will be my primary focus, we'll see where it goes.

Jeff

[VA HUNTER]

So just a final question about the .35 caliber half-stock percussion rifle I acquired. After removing the barrel from the stock I found the name TRYON marked on a lower barrel flat near breech end. No other markings on the barrel were visible. I assume this indicates a barrel maker and not the rifle maker. Is that likely correct?

Thanks for any input.

Jeff

[Tanselman]

Your assumption that it is the barrel maker/seller is probably correct, based on location back by the breech, and on a side flat. If it had been an old barrel from a complete Tryon rifle, the stamp should have been in the normal position several inches behind the rear sight on the top flat. If a reused Tryon barrel, there should be scars or filled mortised where old sights and barrel loops were previously installed, and you do not mention any such scars. Tryon sold a lot of gunmaking parts, most with their stamp on them. Your barrel was probably one of them.  Shelby Gallien