Author Topic: This lock was driving me nuts  (Read 2521 times)

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
This lock was driving me nuts
« on: January 02, 2022, 05:44:11 AM »
I thought it was the frizzen so I faced it with 1095. Annealed it to almost 400 in several stages. Re-arched the mainspring and then I got to looking at it and saw it was throwing sparks in front of the pan.
Do I set the cock, minus top jaw and screw in a mill vice and squeezed the bottom jaw down toward the bottom e of the cock. The bottom jaw had been just touching the fence this moved it back away from the fence and the sparks fall in the pan better.
Yeah I tried the “upside down” flint thing and it was unworkable.
I also put more arch in the mainspring and slightly changed the face of the frizzen from mostly flat to slightly curved.
Now it sparks. The photos show the spot where the lower jaw was hitting the fence and the current location. Think I may behave a “before” photo someplace.
The flint strikes a little lower  on the frizzen now.
Haven not shot it yet. And I enlarged the vent about .010”.







He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline tecum-tha

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2022, 07:35:45 AM »
Which lock is that?

Offline duca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2022, 07:42:37 AM »
Wow that rear sight sure is far back! Is it a fowler?

Anthony
...and on the eighth day
God created the Longrifle...

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7019
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2022, 04:09:51 PM »
Hi Dan,
Is that a small Siler on a pistol?  I am surprised it was sparking poorly because they usually are pretty good locks.  Sometimes if the frizzen spring is weak or the toe of the frizzen doesn't press sufficiently hard against the spring, the flint hits the frizzen but only at the beginning of the stroke high up because the frizzen is quickly knocked out of the way. Those first sparks tend to fall forward of the pan. A bit more force needed to open the frizzen allows the flint to get a longer and harder scrape particularly lower on the frizzen and those sparks drop in the pan. 

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jim Chambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1828
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2022, 06:50:46 PM »
For years some guys have complained about the standard Siler lock throwing sparks forward of the pan and have made various "adjustments" to correct the perceived problem.  But, when slow motion photography came along and showed a standard Siler lock in slow motion it showed the lock actually "sprayed" a shower of sparks all the way across the pan.  In real time all everyone was seeing was the end of that spraying process with sparks at the front of the pan.

Offline B.Habermehl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1690
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2022, 07:54:57 PM »
For what it’s worth, I’ll duck into a dark corner of my basement shop when spark testing a lock. I can see what’s really going on so much better. The sparks the lock makes supplying most of the light. BJH
BJH

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2022, 08:01:50 PM »
Hi Dan,
Is that a small Siler on a pistol?  I am surprised it was sparking poorly because they usually are pretty good locks.  Sometimes if the frizzen spring is weak or the toe of the frizzen doesn't press sufficiently hard against the spring, the flint hits the frizzen but only at the beginning of the stroke high up because the frizzen is quickly knocked out of the way. Those first sparks tend to fall forward of the pan. A bit more force needed to open the frizzen allows the flint to get a longer and harder scrape particularly lower on the frizzen and those sparks drop in the pan. 

dave

I was surprised to but another guild member is having similar problems
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19540
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2022, 10:06:42 PM »
The test is whether the pan powder lights, right? ;D  Pretty sure nobody starts working on a lock in a gun already built unless there’s a problem.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2022, 10:34:41 PM »
For years some guys have complained about the standard Siler lock throwing sparks forward of the pan and have made various "adjustments" to correct the perceived problem.  But, when slow motion photography came along and showed a standard Siler lock in slow motion it showed the lock actually "sprayed" a shower of sparks all the way across the pan.  In real time all everyone was seeing was the end of that spraying process with sparks at the front of the pan.

Been working on flintlocks for over 50 years. This one was a PITA. This is the first Siler of any size that I have had problems with.  As a side note I just hardened a pair of L&R frizzens that are some years old now, that would not oil harden. Had to use water which I hate. They seem to spark OK. But have not shot the rifle much note even sighted in. I would also point out that I don’t know who assembled this lock, itwas a group buy by a guild member and it took about a year to show up.  All the locks I have gotten direct from you have been everything I could ask for. So far as the slo-mo stuff. That’s great. But if the lock is routinely slow to light the pan off then the pictures don’t mean much and the guys I shoot with, some experienced builders have been commenting on it. If the wind drops to something that allows it I will get out and shoot the pistol some more.
Before:


After:


Here are a couple of other small Silers I have owned over the the years.
For comparison the highly engraved lock is on on Don King Rifle I once owned and shot a lot. The other is on my son’s pistol. The rifle lock is from the 1970s I think and I am sure Don built it from a kit. The other is from 1999-2001 (?). They are the same but different slightly in places like the frizzen foot. I expect Don reworked the frizzen spring.






I just used up some flint strikes on 4 rifles and 2 pistols. The Manton lock from TRS castings is the best. The Dale Johnson Siler and the rifle with the L&R frizzens is next with the Siler being a little better. The other Swivel with the large Siler frizzens from the 1990s is right in there too but needs a better flint. Then the small Siler pistols. Neither is as good as the others but with a good flint they are respectable and exceptional in individual strikes but less consistent than the others. Though the jury really is out on the rifle with the L&R frizzens. Yeah I went down to the furnace room where it was pretty dark. I did put a thinner leather in the hopefully fixed “problem” S Siler and a slightly thinner flint seems to work better too. As stated I have had several small silers over the years and this is the only one that gave me reason to gripe. It was an assembled lock with no markings anywhere.
AND PLEASE.
Do not see that as some blanket condemnation of Jim Chambers locks. Of all the locks I have bought I buy Chambers locks with confidence. I think they are better done than the vast majority of locks on the market and second to none and are good to go right out of the box. This small Siler is the only one I have had issues with.
I have gotten in locks from other makers that were really  just kits. I literally had to weld the tumbler hole shut and redrill and ream on one since the hole was drilled at an angle and the tumbler thus angled so that the sear would not properly engage the notches.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline tecum-tha

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2022, 01:50:43 AM »
So, siler lock, but builder unknown?
Could be a put together parts set and some of the parts were not hardened right? Softer than normal frizzen spring or?
I never had issues with Chambers, L&R nor Davis.
But, like in all production, there could be issues.
That's why it is important that the lock assembly shops stamp their work (on the inside of course).
Every quality shop would try to correct an issue with a lock they assembled imho.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2022, 06:09:55 AM »
So, siler lock, but builder unknown?
Could be a put together parts set and some of the parts were not hardened right? Softer than normal frizzen spring or?
I never had issues with Chambers, L&R nor Davis.
But, like in all production, there could be issues.
That's why it is important that the lock assembly shops stamp their work (on the inside of course).
Every quality shop would try to correct an issue with a lock they assembled imho.

I could have mentioned a lot of other things as well. But there is little point. I fix things that need fixing. As I pointed out previously. Chambers is with the best of the lot. And the “best” is a short list






He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline gunmaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • the old dog gunmaker
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2022, 09:35:06 AM »
There are "App's" for phones to get pic's of lightening strikes.
Works great on locks.

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2022, 05:27:33 PM »
Dan -  I am glad that you got that lock sparking to your satisfaction.  Sometimes it's just little things that need adjustment, and you figured it out and solved the problem.

I have, on more than one occaision, gotten awfully frustrated, and have had to take several steps back so I could find a solution.  These long-gone folks that first figured out how to utilize a stone sparking on metal to make a gun go BANG, were absolutely geniuses to me.  Wasn't an easy task, but they sure triumphed in the end.

Again, congrats!  And I am really happy that we didn't have to use these types of weapons overseas!

Happy New Year!
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2022, 05:05:33 PM »


Again, congrats!  And I am really happy that we didn't have to use these types of weapons overseas!

Happy New Year!
It would have made operations during the monsoon season "difficult". There was a reason battles were not fought in the rain.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15846
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2022, 11:50:55 PM »
That likely would have resulted in more bayonet charges. :o
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2656
  • NYSSR ―
Re: This lock was driving me nuts
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2022, 12:07:48 AM »
Then yer back to wanting that long rifle again.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln