Shooting traditional sights at 100 yards

[bones92]

I see that Lee has a .45 REAL mold.   Lee's website indicates these as:

Lee Double Cavity Mold produces a 45 Cal. diameter 200 grain bullet. The driving band diameters on the bullet are as follows starting from the base to the tip: .452, .457, .462, and .467.

Will I have trouble loading this in a .45 caliber rifle?  One is my Cornell Kemper rifle with a Douglas barrel from the early 70s, the other is a Brooks rifle with unknown barrel make.  Seems like groove diameter would be no more than .458, so the top two bands on the REAL bullet would be somewhat shaved or displaced.

[Daryl]

As noted in the PM, REAL bullets load very easily. In my own tests with them, I filled (wiped) the grooves full of Lyman Black Powder Gold lubricant. SPG or 60:40 BW/Vas. works well, too.
Accuracy was not as good as with patched round balls, but was suitable for hunting. I bought the moulds, 200 AND the 220gr. REAL bullet moulds at a local store. I never did try the 220gr. bullet
as the slightly shorter one, the 200gr. did not give as good accuracy as patched round balls. I did not try them at further ranges, although did test them in the 18" twist .45 pistol barrel I
have for my pistol.  Using 30gr. 3F GOEX, I made a 2 1/2" 5-shot group with them, at 30yards, from a rest. They were very easily loaded and can be seen (lubed) in the compartment on the
right, in the pistol's box. The 200gr. REAL is not much longer than a round ball, however, they are still a bit long to give as good accuracy as a patched round ball.
Your results might be different.  They are easier loading than a "properly" patched round ball.  Left click on the picture a couple times to enlarge it.

[bones92]

Thanks, Daryl.  I think you answered what should have been my question from the beginning, which would be:  Can I expect to get decent groups with PRB at 100 yards?  (decent being, say, 6" or thereabout)

In my case, it's purely for competition purposes... I hate dropping points at the 100 yard target.    I would probably never take a 100 yard shot at a deer, anyway.

The knowledge that a 4" drop from 50 to 100 yards is reasonable gives me good expectations.  At this point, I really just need to spend time at the range adjusting a good 50 yard load to keep 'em in the bullseye (about 10" I think) on the 100 yard course of fire.   

[bob in the woods]

Since you are specifying competition,[ as you hate dropping points at 100 yards ], I'm a wee bit confused as to what competitions you speak of.  All ours that I know of are for patched round ball only. 

[Dphariss]

Badenpowell,  in truth, I have no idea what muzzle velocity I'm getting.   I typically use .440 patched ball, and my two favorite .45 rifles are each about 42" barrel length.

What muzzle velocity (ballpark) am I looking at for 60 grain 3Fg?   Or perhaps  80 or 90 grain?  (I ask this assuming some of you may have similar barrels and have actually chronographed your shots).

 I found this page: http://www.mapleleafmarksmen.ca/wp-content/uploads/Ballistics.pdf

This implies 80 grain of 3Fg (zeroed at 50 yards) only drops about 4" at 100 yards, and has a muzzle velocity of 1975 fps.  Does this sound right?    It doesn't say anything about barrel length in the link, though....

60 grains should give you all the velocity you need in a 45. I don’t zero at 50 yards for a HV load. Sight it on at 100. For a 50-54 hunting rifle I try for 1” high at 100. This gives a point blank for deer to about 120 with 1900 or so FPps.  Usually this will translate into about 1” high at 25 for most rifles. As shown in this table from the App “Shooter” on my iPhone.

“Naked” bullets in MLs are something that is best forgotten. They were never used in the civilian world off the target range. But when the TC maxi-ball came out the gunwriters, in order to sell advertising starting telling everyone that these things were needed because a RB would not kill anything. Ignoring all the history and even modern experience. I always looked at them as something for people who could not figure out how to use a PRB.
The only elongated bullet that was used much was the cloth patched picket and it has its  own requirements that also make it impractical for hunting.

[WadePatton]

I have offered this idea up for grabs more than once, but I've not done it (yet), and am convinced it would work. Be just great if someone else would try it. 

Want to know your trajectory over 100yds? On a flat range, put out two, three, four, pieces of light paper. spaced at whatever intervals suit you.  Align those targets such that one shot punches them all. 

Measure carefully your bore height and the height of each hole in those papers. Plot on paper. There's your trajectory. Repeat as necessary/desired.  To eliminate the "drag" factor of punching those papers, remove all of them but one and remeasure.  Play with this just a little bit and a fellow will have a FAR MORE accurate idea of what his actual trajectories are over any range he chooses with any gun or load. There is no ballistics charge going to give you more accurate numbers and your velocity could also be estimated quite accurately from these findings-but there wouldn't be much point in that would there?

Have fun. Note I probably stole that idea from some gun writer of the 70's or 80's. I can't recall or give credit. I used to read 'em all.

Wouldn't it be easier to just shoot at 25-50-75-100 yds and aim center bull. You'll have the trajectory.

Saves time and effort my way,  Shoot single targets to verify, if desired.  Sometimes we don't has all day.

[WadePatton]

Wade's idea might work but I'm thinking it would be a bear to line up all those papers at the right height. So Dan's idea of just shooting at each range would be how I would do it and have done it.

This getting the papers in the right place will embed the trajectory in your mind.  Also I'd be using bigger paper or even cardboard to get started--or "on paper" for the full punch. What it eliminates is velocity variations between shots and also gives more data per shot.  That's all.

[Maven]

Wade, Would a laser pointer taped to a heavy tripod allow you to better (perfectly?) align those targets?

All, On one of the trail/woods walks I used to attend, the last target was a ~6 ft. long oxygen cylinder suspended vertically @ 125 yd. to be fired upon off hand and with primitive sights.  It was "do-able" offhand, but from a rest or prone, I think the success rate would have been >90%.  Those in attendance didn't adjust their powder charges, but I did (90gr. FFg; .490" PRB; Lyman .50cal. GPR) and sometimes hit it.  Trust me, when I missed, it wasn't the gun....

[bones92]

Wade's idea might work but I'm thinking it would be a bear to line up all those papers at the right height. So Dan's idea of just shooting at each range would be how I would do it and have done it.

This getting the papers in the right place will embed the trajectory in your mind.  Also I'd be using bigger paper or even cardboard to get started--or "on paper" for the full punch. What it eliminates is velocity variations between shots and also gives more data per shot.  That's all.

Wade, the main advantage to your method would be that it would largely account any variation caused by the shooter or otherwise.    If one can shoot a really tight group at 50 yards and a really tight group at 100 using the same exact load, then perhaps it wouldn't be necessary.  But otherwise, your method would accurately the track the trajectory regardless of the shooter variables, as long as the load was replicated consisentently, and the shooter marked each paper between shots to keep track of which holes correspond to one another.

The major fly in the ointment would be the effect on a round ball from going through paper, even the ultra light, thin paper.  I would think that even a cheap off-brand Kleenex tissue would affect the velocity of the ball, thus causing more drop in trajectory in subsequent targets than normal.

One way to align targets accurately would be to cut a rectangle in  each cardboard backer, with dark black hash marks at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions, so each backer is identical.  Then sight through the holes so the hash marks align perfectly.  One would have to sight along the rifle sights using a bench rest, then be sure the rifle is in the exact same position when firing.   Then apply the thin paper in identical manner on each.    The result would show a true trajectory, except for the aforementioned effect on the ball from passing through layers of paper.

Fun to think about, but I will just stick with developing a good load and/or sight picture for 100 yards using PRB.   The exact trajectory is not important if I have a load that works at 100 yards.

[OldMtnMan]

The problem I saw right away was you'd need to know the trajectory before setting up the papers/targets. Unless you use really big papers.

[Daryl]

When Forsyth noted the trajectory target setting, to judge the trajectory, all of the page bottoms at the various ranges out to the target butt, cut the 100yard bullseye in 1/2. That is, when he
sighted at the bullseye, 1/2 of the bull was on the first paper and the bottom 1/2 was on the 100yard target page(sized accordingly).
 Thus he was watching/cataloging the shot trajectories impacting above the point of aim.  This was to show the advantage of a round ball as opposed to the "conical' ball from the same gun - both being sighted for 100yards.  The trajectory of the round ball was much lower, thus easier to hit at the intermediate ranges - ie: the spherical ball had a lower trajectory & longer point blank trajectory than did the "conical" ball - at normal hunting ranges.

[WadePatton]

The problem I saw right away was you'd need to know the trajectory before setting up the papers/targets. Unless you use really big papers.

Yes, even if laser straight (yes a laser pointer could be super handy for setting targets), we'd be guessing about the actual trajectory, but then also could be straight off the published data or from someone else's chrono'd loads using similar components of same bore. So long as the wind is very light to calm, the left and right shouldn't be an issue assuming reasonable load accuracy.

Heck I'll let you know when I try it out. Since I've decided to open up my woodland to silvopasture/savannah, I should soon have lots of places to set up for longer shooting and might just try the multi-range targets thing. Could be tougher than I think. 

[OldMtnMan]

Have fun.

[oldtravler61]

  Well this really is interesting. But where I hunt, which is hardwood an swamp. I sight my 50 or 54 in with 75 grains of 2 f powder.
I sight it dead on at 50 yards
 I also know that the lungs/heart area in a deer is about 11 inches on a average whitetail. That's where I shoot for. Has worked extremely well over the year's.
If their out around a hundred yards which is a rarity. I just aim level with the top of the back.
Works just fine.