Flat vs crescent buttplates

[JHeath]

To my understanding:

Flat or "shotgun" buttplates on rifles are mounted to the shoulder pocket. In that stance, the body is angled about 45deg from the target and the rifle projects out from the chest.

Crescent or hooked buttplates are mounted to the upper arm. In that stance, the body is angled nearer 90deg to the target and the rifle is almost across the chest. I've heard people claim otherwise, but there's zero chance e.g. hooked scheutzen rifles were mounted to the shoulder, and crescent plates were later called "rifle" buttplates as opposed to shotgun.

(Flat buttplates can be mounted to the arm but mounting a crescent to the shoulder is a bad idea.)

Longrifles had both types of buttplates. Is there any evidence of shooters in different locales being aware of two different stances depending on the type of buttplate?

[OldMtnMan]

Whenever you see someone complaining about the curved butt plate you just know they're not shouldering it as it should be.

Hickock45 is a good example when he shoots his GPR.

[WadePatton]

Tennessee rifles pretty much never had flat plates. For that I am grateful as I love the silhouette of our guns. If a fellow/fellowette cannot take the time to learn to properly shoot whatever it is he/she is shooting, then he/she is doing themselves a disservice.

[JHeath]

Whenever you see someone complaining about the curved butt plate you just know they're not shouldering it as it should be.

That's what I'm wondering. In the longrifle era, did shooters from various places understand that, or discuss it? Or were flat-buttplate users as confused as modern shooters? I've seen numerous reviews and explanations by modern shooters emphatically denying that crescent buttplates mount to the arm, and declaring they only exist as misguided aesthetic styling. Makes me want to hand them a scheutzen rifle.

[OldMtnMan]

It does help hold up a heavy barrel. Handy on a Hawken.

[tddeangelo]

Living in Pennsylvania, I was shooting flintlocks early so as to be able to join in on the late season hunting.

I was shooting TC Hawken rifles at 10 or 11 years old.

Even I was able to reason that if it hurt to sit the gun one way, another way might be better. I just assumed most shooters had this same process play out.

So....some are just stabbing that pointy toe of the buttplate into their pec and having at it? Ooof. They're more pain tolerant than I.

[Daryl]

John Wayne (I think it was J.W.) had a saying for people like that.

As far as recoil goes, the hooked butt plates are generally thinner than the "shotgun" butt.

Thus the Shotgun butt handles/distributes recoil much more efficiently than a hooked butt.
The muscle it rests against, is much broader than-is the muscle used as a cushion for the
hooked butts.

[Daryl]

Further to my above post, imagine shooting a .69 Hawken with 140gr. 2F and a 482gr. round ball.
The shotgun butt, held on the pectoralis major muscle (shoulder pocket) is easily shot with that load. A
Hawken would be murder, indeed, that is why I sold my S. Hawken .58.  It would not shoot accurately
enough for me at 100yards, with less than 140gr. 2F and it's relatively light 285gr. round ball. The recoil
was quite unpleasant due to the curved, hooked butt plate held in the crook of the arm, just above the
bicept, in/on the deltoid muscle.

[JHeath]

John Wayne (I think it was J.W.) had a saying for people like that.

As far as recoil goes, the hooked butt plates are generally thinner than the "shotgun" butt.

Thus the Shotgun butt handles/distributes recoil much more efficiently than a hooked butt.

The shotgun butt distributes energy across the shoulder pocket. The crescent transfers it to the upper arm. The arm and collarbone being mobile, the crescent might allow recoil to be transferred gradually as the bones swing but yes it’s narrower and not designed to mitigate recoil. 

The crescent secures the butt to the upper arm, angling the rifle across the chest almost parallel to the shoulders so the CoG isn’t cantilevered forward like shotgunning. By preventing the butt sliding up it prevents the muzzle tipping down, while allowing the left hand to support the rifle further rearward, so the left arm can be kept near or against the torso. Basically it’s for position shooting, like a scheutzen buttplate. Nobody would dream of mounting a scheutzen rifle to their shoulder pocket.

But what I’m wondering is what people from the longrifle period said about it. Evidently, shooters from some regions mounted to the arm like position shooters, and other regions to the shoulder like shotgunners.

[JHeath]

Further to my above post, imagine shooting a .69 Hawken with 140gr. 2F and a 482gr. round ball.
The shotgun butt, held on the pectoralis major muscle (shoulder pocket) is easily shot with that load. A
Hawken would be murder, indeed, that is why I sold my S. Hawken .58.  It would not shoot accurately
enough for me at 100yards, with less than 140gr. 2F and it's relatively light 285gr. round ball. The recoil
was quite unpleasant due to the curved, hooked butt plate held in the crook of the arm, just above the
bicept, in/on the deltoid muscle.

My last trip to the range, I got mauled at the bench by a middling some-other-thing. Then I shot a .54 crescent-butt with steep drop, 90gr FFF, standing position, from the bicep just below  the deltoid. Total pussycat, at least after what I’d just been through.

[Daniel Coats]

Looking back I've always tended to shoot cross body. Never grew up using shotguns and my ancestors are from Tennessee go figure. I must say though it's possible for a crescent butt plate to be too skinny and pointy even for me. My Jack Duprey Soddy however is just perfect and must be a result of other factors like drop and LOP.

[JHeath]

Daryl, here’s an upper-class Englishman who took a fine London sporting .58 made by a gunsmith-to-the-Queen, sawed off the part of the butt, grafted another piece walnut, and fitted a crescent plate.

I was going to buy you this for your birthday, but I wouldn’t want you to be disappointed.

http://www.hunting-heritage.com/blog/index.php/2018/11/22/ruxtons-other-rifle/

[Scota4570]

I like both types.  I do not shoot one different than the other.  I would never make a stock that could not be comfortably fired in a modern shooting form that is most conducive to accurate shooting. 

If the radius of a crescent butplate it too small I am out.  The castings sold for Ohio rifle parts sets are to small for me to shoot.  There is no part of my arm that it fits. 

 I will not own a rifle that requires a contorted shooting position.  Another example of contorted shooting position is the British Enfield MLs.  I have a parker hale 2-band.  The stock has so little drop that getting a normal head position and aligning  the sights is impossible with a reasonable hold.  The idea was to face the target head on and make the rifle point straight away instead of across your chest.  It is the like tacti cool nonsense you see on the TV.  It was a bad idea, still is. As an aside some British officers had their rifle restocked because of this. 

[Dphariss]

Daryl, here’s an upper-class Englishman who took a fine London sporting .58 made by a gunsmith-to-the-Queen, sawed off the part of the butt, grafted another piece walnut, and fitted a crescent plate.

I was going to buy you this for your birthday, but I wouldn’t want you to be disappointed.

http://www.hunting-heritage.com/blog/index.php/2018/11/22/ruxtons-other-rifle/

He should not have drank the water in St. Louis that last trip. I assume that’s how he got Cholera.  Sad. Another book or two would have been great..

[Dphariss]

Further to my above post, imagine shooting a .69 Hawken with 140gr. 2F and a 482gr. round ball.
The shotgun butt, held on the pectoralis major muscle (shoulder pocket) is easily shot with that load. A
Hawken would be murder, indeed, that is why I sold my S. Hawken .58.  It would not shoot accurately
enough for me at 100yards, with less than 140gr. 2F and it's relatively light 285gr. round ball. The recoil
was quite unpleasant due to the curved, hooked butt plate held in the crook of the arm, just above the
bicept, in/on the deltoid muscle.

The typical Hawken BP is maxed out at 54 caliber IMO.
Dan

[alacran]

I own guns with both types of butt-plates. They are both shot differently. I agree that .54 is about as large as is comfortable with a Hawken but have shot Hawken's as heavy as .62. The heavier caliber guns are in my opinion single purpose guns for hunting. They will wear you out for target shooting.

[JHeath]

As we see above, there is no modern consensus on crescent plates. Flat plates are uncontroversial.

Assuming the moderator does not object, I am going to take this subject to Antique Collecting. I am confident in why crescent plates exist and how they are used. I am more interested in how the required shooting style relates to local building traditions of original longrifles.

[Daryl]

Ruxton was quite an eloquent writer. Such a horrid "thing" he did to that lovely rifle.

[Bob Roller]

The most uncomfortable rifle I ever fired was Tom Dawson's precise copy ot the Modena Hawken which was a J&S.It is to me nothing more that a place to store parts until a better gun can be made from them.It was either 54 or 58 caliber and used 140 grains of 3fg.That was supposedly the most accurate load for it and went way beyond surviving powder measures of that time.I did get 3rd place with it in the first Hawken match on the "primitive"range at Friendship in 1968.130 yards offhand.
Bob Roller

[AZshot]

I think crescent butts are great, in small caliber, soft recoiling rifles.  And I think that is where they were always used.  Big caliber American military guns had flat butts from the early 1800s. After the Civil War, Henry, Winchester, and the like made crescent butts, but these were quite weak rounds.  Later, schuetzen had crescent butts.  But when the 1874 long range Creedmore competition rifles were ordered for the famous match against the Irish, in hard kicking rounds, they were with "shotgun" butts. 

[AZshot]

One could order different butts of course.  You could order a 16" bull barrel on that rifle too.  But very few shooters would have enjoyed that rifle, after they ordered it.  If they were shooters.

In Long Range Silhouette and BPCR people shoot shotgun butts with hard kicking rifles off rests for the most part.  In the 1870s and in the 1990s.  Schuetzen and long rifle hunters had heavy rifles, lighter weight bullets, smaller calibers usually.  And only fired occasionally.  A buffalo hunter fired hundreds of rounds a day.  A crescent butt would kill you.

[Robby]

Growing up left handed you learn to adapt and adjust to many different tools and activities. Crescent buttplate? Couple shots for orientation and adjustment and good to go.
Robby

[JHeath]

I think crescent butts are great, in small caliber, soft recoiling rifles.  And I think that is where they were always used.  Big caliber American military guns had flat butts from the early 1800s. After the Civil War, Henry, Winchester, and the like made crescent butts, but these were quite weak rounds.  Later, schuetzen had crescent butts.  But when the 1874 long range Creedmore competition rifles were ordered for the famous match against the Irish, in hard kicking rounds, they were with "shotgun" butts.

Fwiw the Creedmoor matches were shot prone.

[Daryl]

Exactly, JHeath.