Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....

[Rolf]

Rolf, it is just a numbers game. I've been a contractor for Chambers Flintlocks for 8 years now. I have built over 4000 locks (probably closer to 5) In that 8 years I have probably only made 4 batches of leftie Siler locks.

As for the CNC route, yes it is easy to flip/mirror your part in cad, but there is more too it than that. in most cases you'll have to make all new jigs for each part (again mirror images) and I cannot see doing less than a run of 100 locks and making any money. The CAM used to actually run the machine will also have to be updated and re-run, and proofed, etc. So, as a percentage of the cost of each lock the price in time and materials is much higher.

For example, if I make a jig to hold 10 left handed plates for machining and then make 100 locks a year, the per part costs associated with each plate are much higher than my right handed jig in which I consistently make several thousand a year.

I hope that helps. I feel for the lefties out there!!!

Best,

CE

Thanks for the explanation. I understand the problem now. Guess I'll have to stick to making my own left handed versions from scratch. I currently working on a left handed four pin version of an Alex Henry lock. Just finished the first attempt on the hammer. Started on the second.  Found some mistakes I want to correct. Pictures show the block of steel I start with and the finished hammer. Takes about 3 days to make a hammer.

Best regards
Rolf

[Chris Evrard]

Chris,
Don't sweat the "forging guys" I hand forge all of my lock parts, but I also use a Bridgeport to flatten things out before filing. One of the things that a lot of not metal guys miss is the fact that making complicated little things is a lot of fun. I have over a hundred files and hand saws and I sort of regard them as my toys I guess every thing in my shop is really a toy even though some of the toys weigh more than a pickup truck. Once you get bored duplicating a lock design a later period lock around the same skeleton. Have  fun.

Clint,

Yes, this is about having fun! Exactly. Having fun and learning something. You hit the nail on the head.

Best,

CE

[Chris Evrard]

Thanks for the explanation. I understand the problem now. Guess I'll have to stick to making my own left handed versions from scratch. I currently working on a left handed four pin version of an Alex Henry lock. Just finished the first attempt on the hammer. Started on the second.  Found some mistakes I want to correct. Pictures show the block of steel I start with and the finished hammer. Takes about 3 days to make a hammer.

Best regards
Rolf

Wow! That is nice work. Very impressive. It is so gratifying to turn a chunk of steel into something graceful and useful. You have some skills there. Thanks for sharing!

[Marcruger]

Rolf, that is amazing work on that hammer. 

As far as making a new lock plate, if you already know the internals of a certain lock works well, then making your own plate allows for creativity or matching an original lock.  You'd have easily accessible internal replacement parts too. 

I have one of Chris' tuned Chambers locks, and it is "slick as owl snot" to quote a friend. 

Chris has assembled many, many locks of certain types for Jim Chambers, and knows his way around locks.  I look forward to seeing what Chris comes up with. 

God Bless,   Marc

[DavidC]

Take a piece of stock held in a vice and on parallels. Face that metal, run your Y axis path with a ballnose to create that curved section (name for that?) and face the stepdown next to it. Then drill your holes and tap them. The lockplate's thru holes are now properly located relative to one another.

Make a fixture plate, literally just a piece of stock with a profile that doesn't overhang the lockplate. If you keep the fixture plate or mount square you can just hold that in a vise and indicate the corners of your choice for your program's X,Y zeroes and touch off the face of the stock for Z. At this point you can hold the lockplate (or future lockplate) against the fixture by using bolts, washers, and some of the already existing holes. Now you have an extremely solid means by which to hold the lockplate while edgemilling the profile. You have plenty of clearance for your tools to overhang and can readily use a larger endmill (1/2 - 3/4) to buzz through the profile leaving .010-.020 stock on the edge for a finishing EM pass. It's a much more reliable hold than the milled profile jaws, much more repeatable, and more easily re-used if you plan to do small runs of the stuff.

You can also simply mirror the positions of the holes (then mark them with something to indicate which sets are which) to run left and right handed locks without needing to change your zeroes in the programs.

Not sure what CAD/CAM you're running but even on 1980's CNC machines and 20 year old MasterCam the process for mirroring the program and re-posting to the machine will take less than 20 minutes.

I really don't think the average person, even a really skilled craftsman, understands just how much of a gamechanger this stuff has been. It's great to see it making its way to more hobbyist level projects.

[Craig Wilcox]

Gents:  One of the things I like most about our hobby is learning new things.  Going to the range and working out a better load for a certain projectile.  "Trying" (and so far not succeeding well) to learn to make engraved designs on steel or brass.

And - learning how locks are made!  Been reading all that is posted in this line, and enjoying learning.  I have long toyed with the idea of getting a small mill or lathe, but so far it is not cost effective.  I would probably make one of two smallish parts, and never touch the machine again.  Heck, I'm 76, and not going to live forever, am I?

But, having all of you sharing your collective experiences is almost as good as getting a college education, a BS or MS in historic reproductions of firearm mechanisms and how they are made.

Like some here, I had thought about making mirror images of a program to churn out left-handed locks (No, I am securely locked into my right-handedness!).  But it is really a lot more - making mirror images of the holding processes, and I am sure that counter-clockwise cutting tools are not cheap.

So, I thank you for sharing your methods and means of making quality locks.  You have certainly increased my knowledge today.

[DavidC]

Craig, I promise you that I can find an apprentice or even journeyman machinist or young engineer that will be convinced all you have to do to make a left handed lock is flip the part 180 degrees in a vice. 

[Chris Evrard]

And - learning how locks are made!  Been reading all that is posted in this line, and enjoying learning.  I have long toyed with the idea of getting a small mill or lathe, but so far it is not cost effective.  I would probably make one of two smallish parts, and never touch the machine again.  Heck, I'm 76, and not going to live forever, am I?

Craig, you should SO get a small lathe and/or mill! At 76 I'd hope you have the time to use them too. Lol. Learning how to use them keeps the mind nimble and it is so much fun, even if you did only make 1 or 2 parts

Merry Christmas to you!

[Chris Evrard]

Craig, I promise you that I can find an apprentice or even journeyman machinist or young engineer that will be convinced all you have to do to make a left handed lock is flip the part 180 degrees in a vice. 

Hahaha! I know thats right!

I did however like the idea of using the same fixture plate for both. I tried that back at one of the machine shops I worked for. I ended up swiss cheesing the plate until it was no good anymore in that case. But that was a different situation all together.

I envisioned a plate with 5/16 ground dowel pins that would locate the tumbler hole arranged in rows for each plate. Maybe 10 per plate. A pocket in the plate would give room for the bolster, then there would be another pin to locate the plate against rotationally. Finally a Mightee Bite clamp (or two) to cinch it down.

These are the things I ruminate on as I'm falling asleep at night.......... and I know I'm not the only one

[Bob Roller]

The Alex Henry patterns Rolf has came from my pattern which were in turn from an original Henry 4 pin.
I have made ONE pair of these locks and used some antique hammers,The turned out well but I will not
do any more of these.I am having spasms in my lower back and may have to quit bench and shop work
altogether.I have now ONE Hawken trigger about half done and will finish it for a man in Tn.After that I
am not sure of any more.IF I get some made I will post them here.
Bob Roller

[Chris Evrard]

So I did a bit more work on the cnc'd lockplate.........

The first change was to cut the entire width of the plate on the first operation. This way there is no trying to match up operations when performing the second operation on the back (well, less anyhow). And it worked out very well. The thickness of the pan bolster is figured in from the start. Yay!





After flipping the plate I removed most of the material around the part before going to the decking portion of the process. This also worked out great. "Great" in that I didn't rip the material as I did originally and destroy my cutters. Yay 2!





The end result was pretty sweet. Somewhere I miscalculated a bit on the thickness of the plate. Or didn't get a work offset quite correct. I need to add about 5-6 thou. of thickness back to the plate. And there are a few other tweaks I want to make. But, all in all we're getting somewhere now! Yay 3!

[rich pierce]

Looks nice and clean!

[Chris Evrard]

So the bridle/sear and tumbler holes matched up perfectly. Main spring, frizzen and sear springs all check out.






Just a few tweaks on the plate width and pan mounting area, and I'll be cutting one that will hopefully be installed for real into my gun.

Whoohoo,

CE

[Marcruger]

I am happy things are working out well. As my dad would say, “Fire long. Fire short. Adjust and fire for effect.” 🙂
The work looks really nice.  Keep me in mind for Lock #2.
Best wishes, Marc

[Craig Wilcox]

And me for #3.

I will probably get a small mill later this year, if the stars all align for that.  Y'all are just having too much fun making metal dust.

[Bob Roller]

In August of 2019 I made my last locks,both based on the L&R Durs Egg externals and that was IT.I was getting tired of the work and stopped.I made a cap lock with a few left over parts for a friend and it was a representation of the lock on the Archie Peterson J&S Hawken
shown in Bob Woodfill's book.It was a good long run and now over.I plan a few triggers each month but if I can't find out what these lower back spasms are they too will go away.I just sent the last one to a man in Tennessee for a "Flint Hawken".
I have no idea as to how many Hawken locks I made.Some had plates based on cast copies from antiques and a lot had milled plates.
That is not a hard job and I can make coordinated cuts on a simple tool room mill to shape them but never tried to make a flintlock plate
on a milling machine.To mill one with an integrated pan and bolster would be a study in the manufacture of steel shavings .
I just MIGHT be the last one on this forum that knew any of the founders of the NMLRA and sometimes wonder about what they would think
about all of this material being brought to the market to produce a muzzle loading rifle.Bill Large was probably the last one to see at least some of this growth.
Bob Roller

[Craig Wilcox]

I DID have a lathe many years ago, used it primarily for making screws and such for unmentionable firearms.

But now I am interested in getting a small mill, hopefully in the <$3,000 range.  Any suggestions?  I will also need to get tooling for the mill, hold-downs, etc.  And steel and/or brass to make stuff out of. 

A boy's gotta learn something sometime, and no time like the present.  About to make workbench #4 for my shop.  And I've about used up the walls by making shelves.

[45-110]

Many choices out here for a Vertical mill. Import or older domestic like Bridgeport, Clausing etc. Do not worry about hold down clamps at first, but do buy the best milling vise you can for the accuracy and squareness, Kurt is one top example. Spend some time tramming the head in dead nuts. I almost never use my Rockwell drill press for anything anymore, I do all my drilling on the mill.
kw

[Craig Wilcox]

Thanks, kw!

Any other recommendations?  I do have floor room, and so far three workbenches, with a fourth on the way.  That one will be about 6' long, 12-16" wide, from 2 x 12's.  Pattern maker's vice near one end, and a small rim around the whole thing to keep tools from falling off.  Going to be using 4 x 4's for the verticals and the base.

I think I could easily make a "work bench" for mounting a mill.

[45-110]

Craig
If you end up with a full size J head Bridgeport or equiv. you wont need a bench, the big boys are all on the floor.
best kw

[Rolf]

Craig, this is the mill I have. It weighs 160kg and to be honest is a bit on the small size for the work I'm trying to do.
http://www.siegind.com/product_detail/sx3-small-mill-drill-15008879145519389.html
I would have gone for the next size up, but it weighs 260kg and I could not get it down the stairs to my basement workshop.
Grizzly sells the same mills as Sieg. Both are made in China at the same plant. Don't buy a smaller mill.

Best regards
Rolf

[45-110]

If you end up with a full size knee mill, you will never, ever regret it. They are real machines with features not found on the small bench machines. I have moved my Bridgeport from the one US border to the other, a royal PIA but I can not go a day with out using it, its a 1974 build.
kw

[44-henry]

Around here, PA, I often see loaded Bridgeports going for less than benchtop mill/drills. My advice, stay away from round column machines and go for a knee mill like has been suggested. A former student bought a 9x42 Bridgeport with vices, rotary table, and a couple boxes of collets and other tooling for less than $1500 a few years ago. Mill even had a working digital readout. If you have the space get the bigger machine, the size tends to scare a lot of folks away and keeps the price down.

[Marcruger]

Do you have #1 up and running yet Chris?