Author Topic: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc  (Read 1419 times)

Offline monro1066

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 80
heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« on: May 05, 2022, 10:18:56 AM »
Where do I find a simple guide for this process.
TY in advance .
Don

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19524
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2022, 12:48:39 PM »
Most lock kits have heat treatment information. Cocks should never be hardened. (what was I thinking? No idea) Because different makers use different steel alloys there is no “one size fits all” method. Virtually 98-100% of frizzens will be cast of high carbon steel and this will harden through and through. For most, heating to orange through and through and quenching in warm canola oil will harden. At this point test for hardness before tempering. A new fine file should slide over it and not bite in. Clean up and pack on a soup can of dry sand and heat at 425 in the oven for an hour and turn oven off and let cool.

There are advocates of case-hardening with commercial preps like Cherry Red or Kasenit but these harden so thin as to be of little value in my experience. What folks are really doing is hardening the original carbon steel frizzen through and through in the process, perhaps.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 04:48:26 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Not English

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2022, 06:15:32 AM »
Rich, thanks for your insight. I've heard of case hardening frizzens  but have never tried it. I've always been a little leary of the depth of hardening.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7013
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2022, 02:11:20 PM »
Hi,
I usually case harden lock plates, frizzens, and flint cocks.  It is not really necessary to harden the flint cocks or plate, however, I've repaired quite a few lock plates on which the shoulders where the cock hits was getting peened down and damaged. When locks were made from mostly wrought iron, case hardening those parts was important but that is not really so anymore.  I do it mainly because it prevents any damage to the lock plate and helps resist corrosion since most of my locks are simply polished and not browned. I almost always case harden the frizzens because I usually have to anneal them so I can engrave them.  I also believe it enhances the sparking of any frizzen, however, after reading Jim Chambers' post about steel alloys used in locks, I am not so sure I will case Chambers frizzens anymore unless I anneal them.  He described their process for carbonizing the surface after casting and that should eliminate any benefit from additionally case hardening them.

Anyway, getting back to to Monro1066's original question, I case harden using a heat treating oven.  I pack the parts in 50% bone and 50% wood charcoal within a steel box with lid.  I heat that usually between 1475-1575 degrees depending on my objectives, let heat soak for 90-120 minutes and then quench in 6-7 gallons of room temperature water.  I choose the higher temperature if I am just hardening the parts and will polish them bright and the lower temperature if I am trying to achieve colors. After quenching I temper frizzens at 375-400 degrees for 1 hour and let cool slowly.  Then I use a mini torch and heat just the toe of the frizzen until it turns dark blue.  For all the other parts, I temper to 590-600 degrees for an hour and let air cool.  Be forewarned that if you case harden the lock plate, it may warp when quenched so thin plates should be blocked by attaching them to heavier steel plate.  I place the plates on edge in the pack so the edge hits the water quench first rather than the flat surfaces of the plate. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Van

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2022, 04:13:50 PM »
  Glad I saw this discussion.  I have a couple of Siler Frizzens from kits to heat treat.  I just replaced a Siler large frizzen on a friend's gun on which the original one was old and worn.  I had heated till non-magnetic with a torch and quenched in 30w non detergent oil.  It was tempered in the oven for 1 hour at 375 degrees, but I was not happy with the amount of spark.  I heated again with a quinch in canola oil and same temper procedure.  This time it sparked beautifully.  I'm wondering if the canola oil was better than the 30w?  Both times I heated till a magnet on a telescoping rod did not stick anywhere and quenched immediately.   Anyone else try canola oil and get better results than motor oil?

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2022, 06:20:28 PM »
  I only use canola oil. Always  worked the best for me..
  Oldtravler

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7013
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2022, 06:26:22 PM »
hi,
As Jim Chambers wrote, his frizzens are 1095 steel.  You should heat them beyond loss of magnetism to bright orange and quench in canola or quenching oils.  Motor oil will not cool it fast enough.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Van

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2022, 06:33:39 PM »
  Thanks guys.  Bright orange is the key then not just loss of magnetism.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: heat treating Frizzens/Cocks etc
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2022, 02:20:34 AM »
Bright orange,Kasenit, and old oil from a diesel bus worked for me.Got it from the now long dead Ohio Valley Bus Co,They kept it in drums with spigots and gave it to anyone who needed it,I think there were a good many coal fired stives in homes back in the day and there was probably a bit of diesel fuel contamination from incomplete combustion.Gunsmith George Killen told me about it when I was about 15.
Bob Roller