Oak stocked gun

[Mattox Forge]

At least I think it is an oak stock. Has anyone observed an oak stocked gun? I have never heard of one. The auction photos sure looked like oak, and examining it up close, it still looks like white oak. I am not a wood expert, but I don't know what else it can be.
English 20 bore (.62) fowler. Lock by Simmons, Barrel marked Wheeler and Linwood. Stocking appears to be Simmons as well. The stock, while having an unusual architecture, mounts perfectly and the gun is extremely handy. The stock body appears to be all original, but sanded. The inletting is unstained where it has not be reworked. The original finish is still visible around the metal, and appeared to be much darker. The foreend tip appears to be rosewood, and is possibly a replacement. It is not shaped like all of the known originals I have. I have never seen a rosewood fore-end tip either, they have all been horn, silver, brass or german silver. The joint does not look like period work either. Usually some amount of tenon from the main stock is visible in the barrel channel. The metal has been rebrowned/reblued.
Auction photos:








My bad photos















I would love to hear thoughts on this unusual piece.

Thanks,

Mike

[Mike Brooks]

Could be ash.

[jmf]

Could it be chestnut?

[Mattox Forge]

Ash makes more sense than oak. I don't know what chestnut looks like. Does it have the open pores on the growth rings like oak and ash does?
Non walnut stocked English guns are unusual. I have seen a few maple stocked ones, and have a 1840-50 vintage percussion rifle stocked in that.

Mike

[Stonehouse john]

I agree with Mike that it's ash.  Chestnut does have open pores and even some ray-fleck that can look very much like white oak but everything about the character of this particular stock says ash to me.
 
Chestnut carves nicely but does not hold crisp details in use because it's so soft (same hardness as poplar).  I'm not sure if I've ever seen a chestnut stocked rifle but one that age would likely be very worn and dented. 

John

[Bob Roller]

I like the profile of this rifle.Oak or not,it looks fine to me.About 60 years ago,E.M.Farris had an oak stocked Bedford County percussion made by Leonard Meadows in Shady Springs,WVa.He told me that would NOT be repeated.
Bob Roller

[mr. no gold]

This pretty fowling gun would be a good candidate for recoloring the wood. Knock that polyurethane finish off and use the unsanded areas as a guide for bringing the wood back to what it no doubt looked like not so long ago. Nice piece and thank you for showing it around.
Dick

[Mattox Forge]

I agree with Mike that it's ash.  Chestnut does have open pores and even some ray-fleck that can look very much like white oak but everything about the character of this particular stock says ash to me.
 
Chestnut carves nicely but does not hold crisp details in use because it's so soft (same hardness as poplar).  I'm not sure if I've ever seen a chestnut stocked rifle but one that age would likely be very worn and dented. 

John

It's got to be ash. The stock is as hard as a baseball bat.

It could use some scraping. The refinisher did a fairly good job, but there are some small scratches and miss shapes around the lock flat finials. I am not sure what sort of finish they put on it.

Mike

[mr. no gold]

If you decide to go for finish restoration, burnishing the wood with a tool is as good as scraping it. You might consider giving that a try.
Dick

[Mattox Forge]

Another possibility might be elm.  In my WWI collecting days I had a German rifle that was missing the pistol grip.  The wood sure looked like oak but after a little bit of research I found out it was elm.  That would be my semi-educated guess for this rifle.

Another wood I haven't seen in a stock. You wouldn't happen to have a photo of elm grain for comparison?

Mike

[120RIR]

Another possibility might be elm, the grain is very much like oak and ash.

[Pukka Bundook]

The lock angle looks off enough that I wondered if it was a re-stock.
Odd cheek piece too.
Having said that, its interesting to me that I too have a relic gun, bought back in the UK , that has an ash stock and the same makers mark on the barrel.
Is this mark a Ketland?   (Between the proofs)

[Mike Brooks]

I noticed the odd position of the lock and cheek piece too. Very "non English". But the rest of the gun has all the correct "Englishisms", so I don't know what to think.

[Dan'l 1946]

   The more I look at it, the more I like it. The word unique comes to mind. My vote is ash for the stock, too. The nose cap looks like ebony in the photo--at least to me.
                                                   Dan   

[Mike Brooks]

   The more I look at it, the more I like it. The word unique comes to mind. My vote is ash for the stock, too. The nose cap looks like ebony in the photo--at least to me.
                                                   Dan

The English used cape buffalo for nose caps in that time period. So, the oddity continues.

[Daryl]

When I looked over the pictures, looks like Ash to me - or red oak.
Horn nose cap I'm sure, just like mine.

[Mattox Forge]

The lock angle looks off enough that I wondered if it was a re-stock.
Odd cheek piece too.
Having said that, its interesting to me that I too have a relic gun, bought back in the UK , that has an ash stock and the same makers mark on the barrel.
Is this mark a Ketland?   (Between the proofs)

I don't know who's mark that is between the Birmingham proof house marks. The maker's stamp on the top flat is Wheeler and Linwood, of whom I van find no information.

If you look at some of Simmons other long guns, the locks tend to be tipped way down and they tend to have high, sharp combs.

If it is a contemporary restock, someone went to the trouble of doing an excellent job of fitting up the stock, staining it very dark, dinging it up, and then doing a less than perfect and refinishing job on the metal and wood. Applying the principle of Occam's razor indicates it's probably the original stock with a possibly replaced nose piece, but it is could possibly be a much more recent, within the working life that is, stock than the lock, barrel, and hardware.

Mike

[Mattox Forge]

When I looked over the pictures, looks like Ash to me - or red oak.
Horn nose cap I'm sure, just like mine.

I'll look again, but it doesn't look like horn, it looks like some kind of wood.

Mike

[Pukka Bundook]

Mattox Mike,

a re-stock could have been done in the first half of the 19th century.
I have a John Twigg that has been re-stocked a Very long time ago.  It's a good job, but not a Twigg job.
This is one that maybe Joe P. could help with.
I am wondering if this is a Ketland made barrel or even gun, and the silver escutcheon was stamped with a retailer's name?
My barrel with the same (as far as I can tell, mine is in worse shape) makers mark between proofs, also has a silver  escutcheon, but mine stamped "Oaks, Horesham"
The wood for-end cap has me a bit bothered, as it seems butted up and glued.
Horn caps fitted over a tapered and stepped for-end extension.

[Stonehouse john]

I can't tell for sure from the photos posted but another possibility for the nose cap is that it's not any other applied material at all.  It could possibly just be an ebonized portion of the stock material itself. 

As Pukka Bundook says "it seems butted up and glued".  This bothers me too.  End-grain joints that thin do not last long, yet there's not even a seam-line where the nose cap meets the stock.  Also, the OP Mattox says "the foreend tip appears to be rosewood".  Interestingly, in the early days of the import of African hardwoods to Europe/England, Rosewood was THE "in thing" to have but, not everyone could get their hands on it.  The material most often substituted for it was ebonized ash.

On the photo showing the interior of the barrel channel it looks to me like the stock's grain-lines may run through right into the cap area, meaning it's all one piece.  Again, just a thought, can't see minute detail in the photo, but a possibility.




John

[Mattox Forge]

Mattox Mike,

a re-stock could have been done in the first half of the 19th century.
I have a John Twigg that has been re-stocked a Very long time ago.  It's a good job, but not a Twigg job.
This is one that maybe Joe P. could help with.
I am wondering if this is a Ketland made barrel or even gun, and the silver escutcheon was stamped with a retailer's name?
My barrel with the same (as far as I can tell, mine is in worse shape) makers mark between proofs, also has a silver  escutcheon, but mine stamped "Oaks, Horesham"
The wood for-end cap has me a bit bothered, as it seems butted up and glued.
Horn caps fitted over a tapered and stepped for-end extension.

Pukka,

That is what bothered me about the forend cap. The material and attachment and attachment are wrong, or at least unique, for the period. All of the English guns I have have tenons into the cap and used horn if the cap wasn't a metal. Some are actual dovetails, some are simpler half cone shaped. The silver ones were essentially wrapped sheet silver riveted on. The hide glue they used back then wasn't really strong enough in shear to not have a tenon.

John, about the possibility of a one piece ebonized end; I saw the exact same thing when I looked at my picture and went back and pulled the barrel and checked it again. It is definitely two pieces of wood. My suspicion is that the original horn tip had a pin type tenon (I'll post some pictures to show what I mean by that) that broke off with the cap. When they refinished the stock and metal, whoever recently repaired it used new wood and modern construction techniques.

I suspect Wheeler and Linwood must have been retailer's, as none of the gunmaker books I have list that combination as a gun making firm. A few Wheelers and Linwoods are listed but not together. Simmons was a fairly well known firm.

Mike

[Dan Fruth]

Possibly a game keeper's gun. I've seen English stocked pieces in ash, not unheard of. Fore end looks "ebonized" which means applying a dark black color to the wood to mimic ebony. Nice piece of history.