Mystery Gun from Kansas

[dadams94]

Hello all,
My name is Doug from Lancaster, PA.  I’ve recently joined the forum and am working on a research project that includes background information on the transition of the classic long rifle into the Hawkins and other rifles for their use in Buffalo hunting as a whole. I have so much to learn on this subject!  The question I have is can someone help me properly identify this gun.  This is one of three guns once owned by my family, but was solid to the Finney County KS Historical Museum before I was born.  It’s listed as a .45 to .50 caliber Smoothbore Hunting rifle c. 1870.   When I saw these guns in person, I had no idea that I would be researching them to this extent so I didn’t get better pictures.  The double triggers, its length and heavy barrel all make me think its possibly a rifle and not a smoothbore, but really just what to know it’s make. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Doug

[Tanselman]

Appears to be a late 1840s half-stocked rifle with cast pewter nose cap, rather plain with few details to help locate it. The straight butt lines, toe and comb, could indicate PA, but also could indicate a number of other states. It is highly likely the gun originally had a rifled barrel, based on its rifle sights and heavy barrel, but was later reamed out to shoot both round ball and shot as large game disappeared.

To identify this rifle in any manner, we need to see additional details that help locate the gun to one area of another. Such details include: cheekpiece size and shape, tang length & shape, closer view of side facings around lock, lock bolt washer on back side of gun, etc. Those small details can often point us toward where the gun was made.

Of course, the most important detail on any later, rather generic, rifle is the maker's initials or signature on the top barrel flat several inches behind the rear sight. The barrel looks as if it has been shortened a couple inches at the breech, but the rear sight still sits far enough out that, if signed, there should be some remnants of a name/initials still there. These later rifles, when not signed, often do not have enough details to really nail down accurately. But with the additional views, or getting the museum to photograph the gun and provide them for you, we can get a lot closer to its origin.

Shelby Gallien

[dadams94]

Thanks Shelby for the very informative response. Your thoughts about the gun being originally rifled, but rebored smoothbore make perfect sense to me.  I don’t know the history of the gun per say, but I do know the history of the gun’s owner from 1850’s to the 1919.  Growing up in Illinois, he moved to Doniphan County Kansas on the Missouri River just after the Civil War where he and his brother were some of the very few reported to have killed a buffalo in that county before bison disappeared there. Perhaps with the gun in question?  Converting the gun to smoothbore at this time makes sense for the reasons you surmised.  Later, after the Rocky Mountain Grasshopper plague ruined his crops and nursey stocks in the early 1870’s, he took to Buffalo hunting in the western part of the state during the winters to support his growing family.  There he’s reported to have used several 0.58 Springfield’s and later graduated to the Sharps until he swore off killing buffalo due to its senseless slaughter.    I plan to return to Kansas later this spring and if I talk really nice to the Museum curator, maybe I can look for those initials on the barrel.  Thanks Again!   Doug 

[Notchy Bob]

Doug,

That sounds like an interesting project.  Regarding the rifle, Mr. Gallien's comments pretty well summarize whatever could be gleaned from the photos.  He is a recognized authority on the topic.  I can only add that the rifle (now evidently a smoothbore) appears to be in remarkably good condition, and it was also stocked with a very nice piece of maple.  By all means, try to get your hands on it when you travel to Kansas, take more photos and lots of measurements.

This topic interests me.  If you don't mind sharing the name of your buffalo-hunting ancestor, I'll try to look him up.  Send a private message if you have reservations about posting his name here.  There is a series entitled The Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters and Skinners which will list names and biographies of all the hunters and skinners the authors can find documented, but they are listed alphabetically and the series appears to have stalled out with Volume 2, up through surnames beginning with "K."  If your ancestor's surname starts with the letters A through K, he may be in there.  Or maybe not.  There are a few omissions.

In addition, I would highly recommend that you get your hands on a book entitled Hunting and Trading on the Great Plains, 1859-1875, by James R. Mead.  The author was a professional hunter who also engaged in trading with the native people.  During the period covered by this book, he was shooting round-ball muzzleloaders.  His book is an extraordinary document, very easy to read and thoroughly engaging.  Mead was very observant and highly literate.  His writing was originally published in the Transactions of the Kansas State Historical Society, but the papers were assembled and edited by his grandson, Schuyler Jones, who is himself a well respected historian.  The book was first published by the University of Oklahoma Press:




It was more recently updated and re-edited by Dr. Jones, and re-published by Rowfant Publishing:



Both editions are unfortunately out of print at this time, but you might find one on the used book market online, and I think Al's Old & New Books in Wichita may have a few new copies of the Rowfant edition.

In any event, good luck with your research!

Notchy Bob

[dadams94]

Hello all,

Back in March I joined the forum with a question concerning a muzzleloading rifle in a museum in Kansas once owned by my family.  The rifle was marked as “Smoothbore” on the placard which confused me since it had all the earmarks of a rifled gun.  (See posts above) One thing all agreed on was more information was needed to ID the gun manufacturer. One of the last things I said was that if I talk nice to the Museum curator, maybe he’d open of the case and let me examine the rifle more closely.  So, I just finished my 3,700-mile drive across the county to and from Kansas and sure enough, I wasn’t in the museum more than 5 minutes and they started unscrewing the Plexiglass surrounding the case at my request.  Being handed my ancestor’s rifles was a very big honor.  The case hadn’t been opened in at least 10 years or longer.  The rifle of interest in the Tiger Stripe Maple stock rifle in the middle.

I’ve attached a number of photo’s the help ID the gun’s origin.  Any thoughts in this area would be much appreciated.

The gun weighed in at 9.2 pounds

Close examination of the bore showed faint signs of six lands & groove rifling, but either wear and / or residue made them very hard to see.

The name “MOORE” in visible on the plate.

The bore opens with a 0.40 diameter and quickly narrows down to a 0.36

The rifle was most likely purchased or acquired in Illinois between the years 1855 to 1867, but that timeframe is based on the history of the gun's attributed owner and nothing more.

[Daryl]

Cool! - Not difficult to see why they thought it was a smoothbore.
Heavy for a small bore, but about normal, I assume. Because the actual bore was measurable with the tines of the calipers,
the muzzle was funneled, instead of the longer cone that appears to be used today.
Looks like the nipple is cross-threaded.