looking for a standard load for muzzleloading shotguns...

[northup87]

Im testing a damascus 42 inch 12 ga. barrel and I was wondering what a standard charge load for a muzzleloading shotgun is 70 grans?

[Daryl]

2 1/2 to 3 1/4 drams is normal and will do the job.  A dram is 27.3gr.  There are 437.5gr. in an ounce.  Shot loads run 7/8oz. to 1 1/4oz. for a heavy load for the 3 1/4 dram charge. There is no need to try to make it into a modern 3 1/2" magnum.

You'll need over powder, fibre and thin ovrshot card wads. All are available from Circle Fly or trackofthewolf.  The charges are rounded to full grains weight.   I would use 2f for powder.  If using 1F instead, I'd use an extra 10gr.  There are some people who use finer powder for shooting shot as it should reduce the pressure at the muzzle. This might reduce the tendency to blow the wads through the shot cloud in cylinder bores.  I personally haven't experimented with the finer 3F powder in 20 shotguns, so cannot comment further on 3F's use. 
2 1/2 drams = 68   
2 3/4 drams = 75   
3       drams = 82 
3 1/8 drams = 85 1/2
3 1/4 drams = 89

7/8oz =    383gr.
1oz. = 437.5gr.
1 1/8oz = 492gr.
1 1/4oz = 547gr.

[northup87]

exactly what I needed Daryl thanks...

[Daryl]

If there is no choke. I'd experiment with what DP and others here have suggested, using 1/2 of a 1/2" wad, instead of the whole wad.  This might keep it from punching through the shot column.  In an origianal H. Wahl ball and shot gun, I tried just using the thin overshot wads between powder and shot and was rewarded with donut patterns- failure. I managed to hit 10 out of 10 birds, but 3 didn't break, just dusted them, although the shot cloud enveloped the bird.  Bloody hole in middle of the pattern!  I didn't get around to testing other wad columbs in that gun, but would have tried part of a 1/2" wad as the next trial. 

Butcher paper is good for patterning.  With a cylinder bored gun, step off 25 or 26 yards from the big sheet of paper. Have an aiming point in the middle, something to put the bead on.  You will see if the gun shoots high, low or to one side - something important. Many guns don't print to the bead and is dependent on the 'height' or lack of the breech in taper and straight barrels.  This will teach how to hold the gun and how high your eye has to be above the breech - how much barrel you have to see to hit centre. 

Adjusting wad columns, shot charges and powder charges can change patterns drastically. Any success's in patterning must be repeated to ensure it is 'true'.

A cylinder bore, if shooting 'strongly' should put 70% of the pattern inside a 30" circle at 25 yards.

With the shot size you are using, it is best to weigh out 1oz. then count the # of pellets in that ounce and record the #.  Thus if you're using, say 1-1/4oz., merely multiply the # per ounce by 1.25, etc.

The shotgun I noted above, shot best with 3 drams, ie: 82gr.2F and 1 1/4oz., a good load.

[northmn]

I think we may tend to load heavier today than yesteryear.  Standard loads for BP cartridges were about 1-11/8 in a 12 bore and 1 1/4 in a 10.  These were common loads used by waterfowlers.  Shotgun patterning consists of a couple of variables.  Generally you can eyeball a pattern before going to the trouble of counting pellets.  If there are large holes in a pattern you need more work on getting it to even up.  An old rule of thumb was to use the same measure for powder and shot, however many claim better results with a little less powder, such as 75 grains of 2f for 1 1/8 oz.  Today we use 2f a lot for shotguns.  When I had started shooting 1f was considered a good powder for shotguns (probably this was the same measure for shot and powder).  VM Starr did not use fiber wads but used two card wads.  Most like the fiber wads as they hold lube (even water) for continued shooting.  I do not use them in hunting loads and use the Starr formula of two card wads.  I just split off an overshot wad from a card over powder wad. 
Another issue in patterning is to see if the thing shoots where you point it.  Use on rising birds usually wants a pattern over center, where crossing shooting may take a centered pattern.  You put up a marker and pull up and shoot as in hunting and see where the pattern centers.  You might want to do this a few times to make sure.  I have had more than one shotgun that did not hit where pointed.  One a nice little 20 gauge O/U that had a too slim stock.  I sold it rather than wreck the value by doing stock work. 
DP

[Dean D.]

I second what Northmn said. 

Back in the early 70's I was given an 10 ga. SxS Percussion cap shotgun made by Williams in London.  When my uncle gave it to me he also gave me the shot/powder measure with instructions to use equal volumes of both when loading.  That old gun killed many ducks along the way. 



The measure on the left is the original which throws a 1 3/4 oz. charge when loaded level to the lower edge away from the pouring spout.  The newer measure on the right throws a 1 1/8 oz. charge .  I have always used fiber over-powder wads and a fiber over-shot wad.

[northmn]

Counting pellets and figuring percentages is the shotgun shooters equivalent of group size for a rifle.  Like group size it has value, especially for longer range loads, however pattern quality is to me more important.   There were two developments that help determine this as to analysis.  One was the Berlin Wansee system and another I have seen in publications like the American rifleman.  The Berlin method is more complicated than needed, but the American method works as well.  You draw your 30 inch circle, draw a 20 inch circle inside it and section it into four sections with a + through the center.  The count in the 20 inch circle shows how much the pattern is centering.  Steel and high grade shot like nickel plating tend to throw to high center density.  The four quadrants tell you how even the pattern is.  The quadrant counts will never or nearly never be equal but should be close as in 75% of lowest to highest.  The ten inch is enlightening because it genera ll shows a very thin pattern as compared to the center 20 inches.  I had a pheasant load I developed that patterned very evenly for IC shotguns and was deadly up close.  Developers like Tom Roster worked on loads that were for long range shooting and had a tremendous center density.  Often I forgo the more mathematical methods and look for even patterning loads at the ranges I may shoot.  If a clay pigeon fits in side any holes (as an example) and there a lot of them, or if I see a lot of clustering where two or more pellets are very close together then I keep working on the load.  More game birds are lost to too tight than an open even pattern. 
DP

[Daryl]

Lexan sheet is a shotgun patterner's dream material. Years ago, when working on the chokes of a doubel AYA 10 bore, I made a 1/10" thick, 30" circle of lexan for use in patterning my guns.  Further experimentation led to cutting a 20" circle out of the middle of this sheet, just to get the concentration percentage differences for the inner and outer circles which is valuble in determining a load's useful range.  Nicks in it's edge allowed a felt pen to mark the quadrants for later scribing straight lines out from centre with the felt pen. This made counting holes much easier and for seeing 'holes' if they developed inside the pattern.

  Patterning got to be quite time consuming, and if working on a cylinder bore or at close range today, I'd probably forego the 30" and merely stick with the 20" pattern sheet.  After the 10 bore, came a couple 12,s and a pair of 20's, all of which benefited a lot from load development and alteration of wad columns.

 Our BP shotguns are no different in regards to developing patterns, except I've found working with BP loads to be somewhat easier than with modern stuff.  The force with which the load is seated in the breech, is quite important in getting repeatable results in patterns, btw - same pressure each and every time and about 40 to 50 pounds of force will suffice.  However, if one load has 10 pounds and one 50, the pattern will reflect this difference quite noticably, giving little consistancy in the delivered pattern, just the same as if one ball is seated with little pressure and more for the next. They don't hit the same place on a 50 yard target.  No pressure in one shot load can produce huge holes in a load that produces normally excellent patterns.

Patterning and thus load development can take a weak load putting a mere 40% to 50% of the shot inside that 30" circle (cylinder - no choke) to landing a nice, slightly centre concentrated pattern in the 70 to 80% range.  Given the proper sized shot, this can turn a 25 yard gun into a 35 yard gun for upland or ducks over decoys, or even allow good wing shooting to 40 with tighter patterns yet.  Choked barrels usually improve this range in 5 yard increments, ie: ImpCyl, Modified, IMP Mod, then full.

Black powder, although thought by many to be an archaic propellent form, really isn't when it comes to shot loads.  BP guns usually pattern better than similar choked modern guns which are using smokeless powder. BP shotguns are also more load friendly in that they are easier to work up loads for compared to a modern gun as well.

[Feltwad]

The standard load for an original 12 bore percussion shotgun is 2.3/4 drms of FFG to  1 .1/8 oz of shot.Before you use this load have the barrel checked out by a good gunsmith to see if it is sound .There are many different methods of loading ,first check the barrel to see if there is no charge left in if all is clear snap a cap on the nipple pull back the hammer to half cock an blow down the barrel to see if the nipple has a free  vent then snap another cap on the nipple leaving the hammer on the nipple  proceed to load, using a pre measured charge of powder  pour it into the barrel next take a 1/8 card wad and ram home on top of the powder this is followed by another  then pour your measure of shot  and follow with a 1.1/6 card wad . The use of a felt wad is not needed , if you wish to use a feltwad always follow with a card  if not then the shot load will embed into the wad and leave your barrel like a bullet or blow your pattern. Leaving the hammer on the nipple when loading eliminates miss fires and if the bore becomes to much fowling then a bit of spittle on the card will eliminate this
Feltwad

[Daryl]

I always raise the hammer to 1/2 bent and remove the spend cap before loading.  Leaving it on with both my cap guns will prevent the chage from staying on the powder. The compressed air between can and will raise the wads and shot back up the tube, or patched ball back up the bore. Firing the gun with an airspace is the recipe for disaster.

[Feltwad]

I must disagree   if you do not want  a miss fire always leave the hammer down when loading .As for the compressed air this escapes through the nipple and blows the powder into the base of the nipple if the hammer is at half cock the compressed air can blow the powder through the nipple especially on an original thus making a  void between the main charge and the nipple this is one of the main reasons of a missfire.I have shot muzzleloading shotguns  now for 60 years using this method of loading and misfires are few even when I can fire up too 100 shots in one outing.
Feltwad

[Kermit]

Overcomplicated. I use a volume/volume rule. Learned it reading, um, who's the fella who did all that muzzleloading shotgun experimenting? Same volume of powder as shot. One measure. I also don't carry overpowder or fiber wads.

Two overshot cards on the powder, one over the shot. I use a leather puncher to cut a wee semicircle in the edge of each card. Lets the air out. The two over the powder won't line up, keeping it tight there. I've done it with sxs capguns and flint singles, all cylinder bores. Try it. Pattern it. You may be surprised.

As they say, your mileage may vary...

[Daryl]

I bow to your longer experience, Feltwad, however my caplock smoothbore (.44) and the caplock rifle(.69) will not allow air to escape out the nipple as the load is seated - if the hammer remains on the spent cap - there is too good a seal. I've had both my guns shove the 'load' back up the tube a good 12" & the .69 will do that every time and it's a rifle.  I then have reseated the ball or shot charge and have it come back up at least 8". etc.  Each time I reseat it, it rises less, until the 4th or 5th time, it stays on the powder, so yes, in a manner of speaking, it will eventually stay on the powder due to air leakage out the nipple.  Now, if I load and the ball comes back up, I relaize I haven't raised the hammer off the cap, I do that, then reseat the charge, which allows air out the nipple and blows the spend cap off the nipple. 

As to a void or dead air space, I don't understand how that could happen. With the rush of air out the 'open' nipple upon seating the shot or a round ball for that matter, the entire powder charge is pushed back and part of it right into the flash channel to sit beneath the flash hole, directily in the flame's path. I cannot envision any 'gap'.  Maybe there is one, but - I disagree.

[Feltwad]

Experience is the best learner for which I have 60 years  shooting  every shotgun gauge .Yes you can have theory or practical  give me practical every time.
Feltwad

[Daryl]

I wasn't speaking from theory.  Obviously, my ball/patch and/or wad combinations are tighter than what you use.   

[LynnC]

See if you can find an old dixie gun works catalog

They had a lot of great info and load data for smooth bores

I hope they still do

[northmn]

Equal measure for shot and powder is so old it has hair on it.  I learned that when I started in the 70's.  Possibly V.M. Starr supported it?  Daryle, Feltwad, are you sure you are not both right.  Daryl you say you cannot load with a spent cap on the gun which would form an air seal?  Feltwad, when you load with the hammer down is the spent cap in place?  A lot of the originals, especially with a larger hole tended to explode caps.  I have had the same experiences with percussion as Daryl and had to remove the spent cap.  While many of the cased shotguns had wad cutters included, a lot of game was shot without the type of wads we picture.  Old wasps nests were considered excellent wading as were a variety of other things.  I have used paper, including napkins.  Sometimes I wonder if the card wads are not too efficient and cause the holes as some of the less than typical wadding may not interfere with the shot column.

DP 

[Daryl]

You're probably right, DP. 

Just last September at the hefley Creek Rondy, I was shootng the .69 with a group, including Taylor.  I put the patched ball down, wherein it followed the rod back up the bore about 1/2 way.  I said, opps, forgot to remove the cap, wherein I did this and as I lifted the hammer to 1/2 cock - the pressure inside went "spewwww" and blew the spent cap off the nipple.  This rifle will do it every time - the hammer must come up to 1/2 bent before seating the patched ball - same as the caplock shotgun I had and even the old H.Wahl 11 bore I used for the trap shooting event. Noth these guns have good locks with good mainsprings and nipples in good condition. Before seating the wads, I have to pull the hammer up to 1/2 cock to allow the air pressure out so the wads will stay on the powder.  No big deal to me.  I've not had any misfires loading this way.

[Feltwad]

Maybe on this side of the pond we use a different type of nipple and cap,for a build up of pressure when wadding a charge with hammer down  I  never encounter in a percussion gun, I do own a 6 bore tubelock that built up pressure and that was because the tube  touchhole was on the large size and to stop the powder from blowing straight through I had to insert a pricker in the touchhole when loading this did cause pressure to build up which when you released a hold on the ramrod it flew a good 6 foot into the air to remedy this I punch a small hole in the edge of the card wad
The nipples I use are mostly the following sizes depending on the bore size 1/4 BSF,9/32 BSF, 5/16 BSF, the percussion caps are mainly No 11 with a long serrated skirt these  when fired split the skirt and after loading and the hammer is pulled to half cock the fired cap just drops off and the powder has filled the vent and ready for the live cap, what I have witnessed on some originals if the vent becomes too large and the mainspring is on the weak side it can blow the hammer back into the half cock postion  in these conditions it is wise to renew the nipple.
Feltwad

[Daryl]

I use standard stainless nipples and RP, CCI or RWS caps- all react the same way. They are snug going on, and sometimes snug coming off when using the light charge of only 3 drams. With a hunting charge, producing higher pressure, ie: 5 or 6 drams, the cap usually splits a bit on the sides, but not across the top with light or heavy loads.  Loading without removal of the cap & with the hammer down seals the nipple and allows the buildup of pressure inside the barrel.

When I shot coil spring locked guns just about 40 yards ago , this never happened, of course.