Author Topic: Which finish?  (Read 3177 times)

Offline Rt5403

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Which finish?
« on: July 12, 2022, 05:42:38 AM »
Looking into finish. I see that kibler has an iron nitrate and track of the wolf has aqua Fortis. Is one better than the other? Any word from those that have tried both would be appreciated.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2022, 01:54:22 PM »
They are going to be the same. Each will stain maple nicely. Results vary depending on the piece of wood, and multiple applications of a dilute solution can get you darker tones if desired.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2022, 03:33:52 PM »
They may or may not be the same.  I have had customers report differences, but can’t comment on how common or significant this is.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2022, 04:26:28 PM »
I ain't scared to tell the difference. I have used both. Aqua  fortis will give you a darker color, especially if you don't  neutralize it.  Kiblers iron nitrate leaves you with  a lighter color  and I have never neutralized it. O do back it up with other stains to get different shades of color. Red maple  turns out darker than sugar maple. I don't use aqua fortis  much anymore except on very hard sugar maple.
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2022, 04:34:00 PM »
I have experienced basically the same results with aqua fortis vs iron nitrate as Mike.  I rarely adjust the color of aqua fortis but the 2 stocks I have stained with iron nitrate I have had to add layers of permalyn stain.
David 

Offline Rt5403

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2022, 11:20:59 PM »
Good information. Anyone have any pictures so I could see the possible difference?

Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2022, 11:59:31 PM »
I like Kiblers Iron Nitrate.  Used the other brand long ago don't care for it.  Each piece of wood will take stain differently.  Use a scrap piece or try it in the barrel channel.
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Offline mgbruch

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2022, 01:14:51 AM »
We don't apply Aquafortis or Iron Nitrite in the inlets, because it can react with the metal over time; so I wouldn't test it in the barrel channel.  Use scrap from the same plank to test; if you have scrap.  If you've assembled a kit and have no scrap, I'd just pick one and go for it.

Each piece of wood is different, so part of it's a $#@* shoot anyway.  I haven't used Iron Nitrite, so I can't speak to that.  These two rifles are both Red Maple, and are both stained with Aquafortis.  After blushing the Aquafortis I rub the finish back with Scotchbrite to lighten the running grain.  Then I put on two coats of Laurel Mtn Forge's "Maple" stain, for some reddish tones.  Same process on both guns, but different results. 



Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2022, 02:01:21 AM »
By aqua fortis, do you mean Nitric Acid?
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Offline mgbruch

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2022, 02:47:05 AM »
I use the Wahkon Bay Aquafortis.  The label says it contains Nitric Acid, Ferric Nitrate, and Ferric Chloride.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2022, 03:00:17 PM »
Auqua fortis after 25 years. Pretþ near black.

NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2022, 04:16:11 PM »
Hi Mike,

Is the darkening of Aqua Fortis due to a need for neutralizing after use?  Just asking.

I am not offended by a gun that gets a bit darker, though I am thinking you didn't have that as the intent to start.  A gun done with alcohol dyes that bleach out in the sun to a light shade worries me a lot more. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2022, 05:26:01 PM »
Here is a sugar maple rifle by Jim Hash that was done with a watered down solution of nitric acid. This was nitric with no iron added. IIRC it was a 5 part water to 1 part nitric mix.
The picture was taken well over 20 years after it was made and it had not darkened to any discernable degree. I have used a similar mix successfully on English and American walnut.  I have had darker results immediately with iron nitrate crystals and iron added nitric mixtures on red maple compared to sugar.




Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2022, 06:29:46 PM »
Hi Mike,

Is the darkening of Aqua Fortis due to a need for neutralizing after use?  Just asking.

I am not offended by a gun that gets a bit darker, though I am thinking you didn't have that as the intent to start.  A gun done with alcohol dyes that bleach out in the sun to a light shade worries me a lot more. 

God Bless,   Marc
This is the stuff that TOTW sells...or sold. This color was not my intent. It has darkened with age. It has incredible curl throughout and the buttstock is real tight stump compression curl. You can still see the curl in bright direct sunlight. I probably didn't neutralize. I neutralized  everything after a certain period in time but it was still going pretty dark after time. I have used alcohol dyes with the same result as you.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline davec2

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2022, 07:54:36 PM »
From time to time I re-post something I wrote back in 2012 on this board and I am going to re-post it here again because of Taylor's correct question and James Rogers example.....and because the mix up in nomenclature sort of drives me crazy.  So for those of you who have read this before, please excuse my OCD* behavior here.....

Part of the problem and confusion with all these stain concoctions is the incorrect nomenclature often being used.  "Aqua Fortis" is the medieval, alchemical name for nitric acid...just the acid...not iron or anything else dissolved in the acid.  Nitric acid, when applied to wood and then heated, even with no iron present, will indeed color the wood darker.  The Ferric Nitrate solution (very improperly called "aqua fortis") generated when iron is dissolved in nitric acid, will produce an even darker color when it is applied to wood and heated as the iron is now part of the chemical process that imparts color to the wood.  So if you ask a chemical supply house for "aqua fortis" they will give you nitric acid, not the ferric nitrate solution most are looking for.  So, as Dan Phariss has correctly pointed out many times, you make ferric nitrate stain using aqua fortis (i.e. nitric acid).  Or, you can make ferric nitrate stain with ferric nitrate crystals...either way, it's the same stuff and neither of them are "Aqua Fortis".  The stain is not "Aqua Fortis" (which, by the way, means "strong water" in Latin.  They called it that because it dissolves a lot of stuff !) 

From time to time, I also see the term "Aqua Regia" bandied about.  Aqua Regia" ("Royal Water" in Latin) is a mixture of nitric acid (HNO3) and hydrochloric acid (HCl) ("Acidum Salis" in Latin because it was made with salt and sulfuric acid).  It is called Royal Water because it will dissolve gold and other noble metals like platinum, iridium, and palladium.  Something neither nitric nor hydrochloric acid can do alone.  I recently had someone tell me how dangerous hydrochloric acid was.  They were surprised to learn that they had a stomach full of it and that a lot of people, who own pools or spas, throw a big slug of "muriatic acid" (i.e. hydrochloric acid) in the spa and then jump @!*% near naked into it.  The HCl in your stomach is strong enough to dissolve a horse shoe in fairly short order.

DaveC2

P.S.  If you are looking to buy chemicals, unless you need it for some very specific reason, don't buy "reagent grade" anything.  Reagent grade chemicals are of very high purity and are used for chemical analysis where it is important to know exactly what you have in the solution.  Reagent grade chemicals are many times more expensive than lower grades.  "Laboratory" or "Technical" grade is what you want for home made wood stains.

P.P.S  If you just throw steel wool, old wrought iron, or nails in nitric acid to make ferric nitrate stain and let it get too hot, you will make an inferior stain.  You must slow down the reaction in an ice bath and keep the temperature cool while the iron is dissolving.



* Actually...it should be CDO....as the letters should be in alphabetical order !!!   :o
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Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2022, 02:57:23 AM »
My Rifle top. Hard Maple  My wife's bottom Ash. 10 or 12 years ago. Stained with nitric acid and well water 5 to1 with iron added until spent slowly. Not neutralized. No other stains

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Offline ltdann

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2022, 04:22:08 AM »
I ain't scared to tell the difference. I have used both. Aqua  fortis will give you a darker color, especially if you don't  neutralize it.  Kiblers iron nitrate leaves you with  a lighter color  and I have never neutralized it. O do back it up with other stains to get different shades of color. Red maple  turns out darker than sugar maple. I don't use aqua fortis  much anymore except on very hard sugar maple.

Mr. Brooks, what do you recommend for a highlighting the curl for Red Maple?  Last build I used tannic acid and Kiblers ferric nitrate.  While a stunning result, it was much darker than I'd hoped for.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2022, 03:47:58 PM »
I ain't scared to tell the difference. I have used both. Aqua  fortis will give you a darker color, especially if you don't  neutralize it.  Kiblers iron nitrate leaves you with  a lighter color  and I have never neutralized it. O do back it up with other stains to get different shades of color. Red maple  turns out darker than sugar maple. I don't use aqua fortis  much anymore except on very hard sugar maple.

Mr. Brooks, what do you recommend for a highlighting the curl for Red Maple?  Last build I used tannic acid and Kiblers ferric nitrate.  While a stunning result, it was much darker than I'd hoped for.
I use something different every time. Some stuff looks great some is just OK. Unfortunately, I never write anything down and I have a short memory.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline HighUintas

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2022, 11:44:24 PM »
Hopefully this isn't too much of a deviation from the topic, but what are some (if any) other period correct stains from the late 18th early 19th century that would have been used in conjunction with aqua Fortis or iron nitrate solution in order to bring out other colors?

Offline RAT

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2022, 03:06:56 AM »
Some makers in some schools added color to tint the varnish.
Bob

Offline BrianS

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2022, 06:20:24 PM »
... and some varnishes yellow (darken) over time.

Offline Not English

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2022, 04:53:56 AM »
I have heard of iodine used in the past to give a red hue. I have no experience with it. I make my own ferric nitrate. It's pretty easy. I do plan on using the ice bath in the future as Dave mentioned in his repost. It makes a lot of sense as I've noticed the heat from the reaction.

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2022, 10:37:48 AM »
Just today I did a comparison with ferric nitrate and aqua fortis. I did a section on two different stocks one stock was red maple and the other was sugar maple. The ferric nitrate was new mix at a 5/1 ratio and the aqua fortis was about 20 years old and was purchased from Eric Kettingburg  (spelling). I found that the new ferric nitrate worked faster to stain the wood, but the end results were almost the same when blushed with the heat gun. Here are the pictures - you be the judge. I applied one coat of Permyln sealer on each section. There are three pictures for each stock - top is blushed with hear gun middle is with the Permyln sealer and the bottom picture is after the stain has dried for 2 hours. I put two coats of stain on the wood.












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Offline Rt5403

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Re: Which finish?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2022, 02:59:28 PM »
Just today I did a comparison with ferric nitrate and aqua fortis. I did a section on two different stocks one stock was red maple and the other was sugar maple. The ferric nitrate was new mix at a 5/1 ratio and the aqua fortis was about 20 years old and was purchased from Eric Kettingburg  (spelling). I found that the new ferric nitrate worked faster to stain the wood, but the end results were almost the same when blushed with the heat gun. Here are the pictures - you be the judge. I applied one coat of Permyln sealer on each section. There are three pictures for each stock - top is blushed with hear gun middle is with the Permyln sealer and the bottom picture is after the stain has dried for 2 hours. I put two coats of stain on the wood.


















Awesome info thank you.