Questions about Numrich Barrels?

[Majorjoel]

I recently picked up a NOS 7\8 straight full octagon 42" barrel that is unmarked but was told came from Numrich Arms. The barrel is a 45 caliber with very shallow slow twist grooves. Thinking about using it for a southern flintlock rifle build but would appreciate anyone who has ever shot a rifle with such a barrel and how it performed? Also, what loading recommendations for shallow groove rifling?

Many thanks in advance! Joel

[45-110]

I have 1/2 stock rifle on the wall with the same barrel that I built in 1970. It never did shoot well with the shallow rifling. I have tried all kinds of patching for RB's, minie balls and maxi's. From memory the minie's and a light charge probably were the best, and that is not saying much.

[Steeltrap]

I had a T\C 1-48 shallow grove barrel from a kit gun I built in the 70's. That barrel was always finicky and never shot accurate groups. I think many deer thanked T\C for making such a bad chunk of metal.

About ten years ago...maybe longer.....I replaced the factory chunk of metal with a Green Mt. "drop in" barrel. What a difference in not only accuracy, but consistent accuracy without the need to swab after two shots!!

If you're going to build a rifle, make sure the barrel is quality. Build it knowing that if it isn't accurate, you can always have it rebored to a larger caliber and have deeper rifling cut. Or you can simply buy a barrel and fit it to your build. Not the easiest way to go....but doable.

Just my two cents.

[smylee grouch]

I have used Numrich barrels and had stellar performance from them but they were 50s and not what you have.

[Bsharp]

Look thru the barrel and see how straight it is, some were mighty off center.

[Dennis Glazener]

Years ago my first ML was a 45 cal Minuteman kit! It had a percussion 45 cal 42 inch. Barrel. Shallow grooves.

I knew no better an only knew the more 3F Dupont powder I use the better it shot. I will not tell you what my hunting load was due to safety concerns but it was well in excess of 80gr 3F!

Even today over 50 years later that was easily the most accurate ML I have shot! Local modern shooters were in awe it out shot there modern arms up to about 100 yds.
Dennis

[heinz]

Like Dennis, one of my first rifles was a Hopkins and Allen Minuteman.  It always shot very well with a 440 ball and 90 grains of powder.  I built a couple of rifles in the early 70s with Numrich barrels, they all shot well and liked fairly heavy charges.

I switched the minuteman out to iron furniture and put a Siler frizzen on it along with making a beefed up mainspring. It was stolen from me and I still miss that old gun.

[44-henry]

Might be better off selling it here and getting a better barrel for your build.

[rsells]

MajorJoel,
I don't have a lot of experience with Numrich barrels, but the first rifle I built back in 1978 was built using a Numrich barrel that I got from TVA back when Jack Garner and Ernie Tidwell owned the company.  The barrel was 13/16 across the flats and cut to 42 inches in length.  It had shallow rifling.  I worked up a load for this .45 cal barrel and got good performance.  I won a bunch of local matches using this rifle.  I eventually wore the muzzle nearly slick on one side using a wood loading rod.  I cut the barrel back 2 inches before I sold it to a good friend of mine.  He uses it for hunting deer and has not had any issues.
                                                                                     Roger Sells

[Majorjoel]

Thanks fella's for all the reply's!  I did check the barrel bore for center and it came out even on all 8 flats. Being brand new with a bright and shiny bore, I really want to give it a chance.  I have a maple stock blank that I cut for a 7\8's barrel a few years ago that was just collecting dust. The fit for this Numrich is just right as well.   

I do have several other barrels including a Rice in 32 cal. swamped but in A weight which will swim in this stock. A couple of Don Getz's barrels in 58 that are oct. to round shorty's and another of Don's barrels that is a 45 shorty oct tapered.   

[Otto]

   I built a 45 cal flint minuteman "kit" in the late 1960s with a numrich barrel. It was an absolute piece of C**p. BUT, i did get an introduction into the world of "how to fix everything" and learned a great deal about repairing bad inletting, poor architecture, cheap hardware, lock refurbishing etc. Not joking, it needed everything redone. When finally re-done it was an example of what a very bare minimum quality rifle could possibly be, BUT it shot exceptionally well!!. Used 445ball and 18 patch with 75 gr 3f. Maybe the best 100 yard shooter I've ever owned. So to answer the OPs ? Yes those old numrich barrels can shoot very well.
  Not relevant, but I'll share this; when I opened the package and was looking at the parts, I saw what looked like a speck of light coming through the breech plug. I poked it with a needle file and it went right through! Sent it back and they returned it saying it was fine. I sent it back again saying it was NOT fine and they sent it back with some brass brazing fill. Being a young kid I accepted that and used it for several years. Finally wised up and installed a new breech plug. A true piece of garbage but it started me on my lifelong path ,

[Scota4570]

I used several in the past.  They shot OK.  They are button barrels.  The grooves are shallow.  Can you measure a slug and say how shallow?  When you do that check to see the bore is the same size all the way.  If the slug is hard to push in spots and loose in others  it is probably a tomato stake.  Check it with a bore scope if you can for overall finish. 

I have used Numrich 45-70 barrels on black powder ML rifles.  The bore on those should be .450 and the grooves 0.458.  That means the grooves are only 0.004".  They shot accurately with patched balls.  I read an article in the American Rifleman in the '60s on how to reconvert a trapdoor to a muzzleloader.   

IMHO the super deep rifling becomes detrimental to accuracy past a certain point.  IT only needs to engage the patch consistently.   You do not need 0.015" or more deep grooves for that.   Past a certain point you are unnecessarily deforming the ball and getting a seal (compression in the grooves) becomes impossible.   I would guess an optimal depth for 45 caliber it would be about 0.008", just a guess. 

Since it is a common size across the flats, I say make the rifle.  Try it out.  IF you have bad luck, buy a Green Mountain and replace it.  The GM barrels are excellent. 

[Roger B]

In my experience Numrich barrels were highly underrated.  They were broached, not cut rifled, & tended to be very smooth. The shallow rifling just meant that you needed a bore sized ball to get the best out of them.  If the barrel has "run out" as many barrels of the day did, just make sure you have the "run out" down at the breech end. A deep, well polished, crown is also helpful. They ain't all bad.
Roger B

[Hungry Horse]

 My experience was very much like Dennis’s with a “Minuteman”. Except when I shot it, I didn’t own it. It belonged to a friend. But he leaned it in the corner behind the bedroom door and it fell and broke the wrist. That barrel is pretty good for a kit gun. They are one turn in fifty-six, which is just about the perfect twist for a forty-five. About 60 grains of 3F, and a good tight patch, made this gun really shoot well.
 Oh, by the way the owner gave the broken gun to me, but not before he took it apart and misplace the lock plate, with the frizzen and frizzen spring. Luckily I had gotten  a couple reject stocks from Numrich, so if anybody has parts or a complete flintlock for this gun, let me know.

Hungry Horse

[Dave B]

I too have had a Hopkin Allen 42" mimuteman rifle in .45 it shot really well. I gave it to my little brother  as a cheistmas gift. He still has it after all these years. It was my first longrifle i bought my self.

[hudson]

I have never used a Numrich barrel but can comment on shallow grove rifling’s. One of my first builds was a CVA mountain a very early one, shallow groves and more than usual as I recall. That was followed with another rifle of the same caliber rifled similar to a Green Mountain. On the 200 yard bears at Friendship it would take out the bears much better than the new rifle with the same exact load. Velocity was defiantly much higher, lot of wins with that rifle. An oversized ball was necessary for beast accuracy. I do rifle barrels for myself and found .010 deep with seven groves works or me.

[flinter49]

I have never seen a Numrich barrel that wasn't a shooter. A good friend of mine had a Minuteman in 36 cal. Butt ugly, but dead accurate. I think you could get a Minuteman in 31, 36, or 45 cal. Seen several over the years both Minuteman and Hopkin & Allen all shooters.

[thecapgunkid]

What happened to Numrich?

My first handmade rifle from the Late Nate McKenzie was originally a minuteman that my friend Alan Johnson dropped off his workbench.  That sissy thin wrist that the Minuteman had probably broke out of sheer fright before it even hit the floor.  Nate made it into what now appears to be a Christian Springs Rifle  as a result pf a beer soaked trade at Whispering Pines Rendezvous.  The crew up there told me to wait until he thoroughly imbibed because he would change from a nickel choking shrewdie into a pussycat with enough lubrication.

Sure enough I unloaded the barrel and all the parts on him along with a fringed buckskin shirt, three or four pairs of Mocassins, two hunting bags and a pair of shoes he had to have in return for that rifle.  It won me all kinds of ribbons, a few Turkeys and never failed me.

When I emerged from Cowboy Action about seven or eight years ago I traded it in to Greg Dixon for a .54 Early Lancaster.  It came back to his store all beat up with a braized breechplug that stuck out about a half an inch worth of threads showing.  A tough end to a good gun.

[flinter49]

I think Gun Parts Inc. bought them out and sold the inventory through their parts catalog. I know I bought a Numrich 31 cal. barrel through Gun Parts Inc.

[t.caster]

Hi Joel,
On my first ML, a Richland arms kit, I wore out the muzzle using a fiberglass ramrod, so i replaced it with a Numrich 13/16" x .45 cal. It was a tack driver! Very nice barrel, but it was shorter and thinner than your brrl.
I also had a Douglas brrl. in .45 cal x 7/8" x 42". It eventually grew too heavy for me as I aged, so I cut it down to 38" for a much nicer weight and balance.
I also have used 7/8" x 42" by .50 cal which have a nicer balance to them due to bigger bore. You could send it to Bobby Hoyt and get it bored larger if you are in doubt about the shallow rifling.

[Marcruger]

My overall thought on locks and barrels is that they are the brains and heart of a rifle.  The real blood sweat and tears are in the hours building the stock and metalwork around these.  In the end, putting a top quality barrel and lock in your art is a relatively inexpensive upgrade over cheap (word used intentionally) parts.  I for one will not buy a nice gun with unknown or poor barrel and/or lock.  An inaccurate or poor sparking gun interested me not. 

Just my two pennies as input.   God Bless,   Marc

[moodyholler]

I been shooting one since 1979. Very accurate!. Have 36 in closet now. Wouldn't hesitate to use it. moodyholler