Question About a Bob Roller Lock?

[Majorjoel]

I direct my question toward Bob himself, but also would like some input from our knowledgeable builders here.

I recently had the good luck to acquire an unused Roller flintlock. I would like to know more about this lock as to what internal parts were used in case I need to replace any down the road. Also, anything that Bob can add to his production of this type of lock are most humbly welcomed and appreciated.

It has been a while since my last longrifle build and if my older crippled up hands can manage it, I'd like to put this lock into something representative to its era and style.  I'm open to all ideas with this and also know the lock is most likely made for something post 1810 ?? or so.  Please share your thoughts and ideas as to what you would build around this nice Roller lock. 

https://ibb.co/Zhxj1Hy

https://ibb.co/fxtyV3y

Hope you don’t mind my adding the photos (RP).

[Bob Roller]

Major Joel,
My locks are made the same way as those made in the time when they were state of the art.They are bench crafted as a one of a kind custom job. used what I thought was the best materials for the job and were readily available.I used cast EXTERNAL parts.plate,cock,rop jaw and frizzen and frizzen spring.I used the Chet Shoults Ketland,Russ Hamm Maslin and a Ketland of unknown origin which was the best of the 3 IMHO. and that' the one in the picture.Most of there preferred the flint to be flat side down.I sold it as a Ketland because a man I shot with had an original rifle with an identical lock that was plainly marked Ketland.The flintlock rifle I finished in 2008 used one of these locks and it went off like a caplock.The moulds that produced these parts are now in the estate of the late Jerry Devaudreuil who lived in Wooster Ohio.
These were used by some makers on the so called "Flint Hawken"fullstock rifles.I haven't made one for quite a few years and it seems to be a durable mechanism and is really one I made for a pistol but the very limited area in this plate was useable.
Good luck in your build with this lock.
Bob Roller

[jgraham1]

Very nice lock you made Mr. Roller.

Jerry

[Bob Roller]

Jerry,
Thanks for the comment on this lock. think I am the only one that ever used these parts and the maker of the moulds is unknown.
I see by the picture that this one is from 1980 and I wonder where it was for over 40 years.Probably in a drawer with the socks and
underwear.I have a friend who has a collection of my locks and triggers but they aren't for sale and I have been told by others that they bought them just to have a modern made lock that looked like the maker cared about his customer.My only comment is that when you get a lock or trigger from my shop it says what I think of the owner/buyer and myself as the maker.This lock seen here is an example of my every day standard in making anything,evern small screws.
Bob Roller

[jgraham1]

I have two of your locks and a set of triggers. All are going into a Don Stith Hawken and a SMR. Excellent quality locks and triggers. Would love to buy a few more for future builds.

Jerry

[Majorjoel]

Thank you Bob for your very informative info on this lock!  I just have to say that having it in hand and seeing the extraordinary details compared to all the other locks I have worked with has been an education for me!

From the springs to the screws, you can see the fineness of handmade pride there.  Just like a very fine watch works!     

[Spalding]

That is a beautiful looking lock. Just the ticket for a Southern gun.
Appears to be a tapered pin in the frizzen. Did you prefer a pin over a screw in that location, Bob?

Bob

[jgraham1]

I think a SMR would show this lock off very nicely.  if you do build a SMR, go for 42-inch barrel and 45 cal.  I would be interested!  Or if you consider selling just the lock, let me know, I am very interested.

Jerry

[Bob Roller]

That is a beautiful looking lock. Just the ticket for a Southern gun.
Appears to be a tapered pin in the frizzen. Did you prefer a pin over a screw in that location, Bob?

Bob

Yes,
I did prefer the pin and the idea s not modern.I have seen straight pins that looked like an unthreaded screw with the head in the plate bolster. When it's in the wood and next to the barrel it was captive.The taper pins I used were 3/0 and 4/0.It also elemenates the chance of a broken tap in the bolster.
Bob Roller

[heinz]

That would be an amazing lock on a Hawken rifle.  It would also look really good on a Lexington Ky school rifle.  The early 19th century rifle styles would all accommodate it well but I would suggest some of the hight style builders such as Lexington Ky or Jamestown NC  or Creamer in Saint Louis

[Bob Roller]

I think I may have been the only one to make a lock on these parts.Also do not know if they will ever be available again.
The origins of these moulds is unknown but a former owner in Michigan thought they were made by a German mould maker
and I am certain they are for a Ketland lock.IF anyone has a set of these and tries to make a lock,using a dial caliper,measure from
the point on the tail of the plate 1.330' and then locate the center and mark it.That will establish the tumbler pivot and then go
from there.I used the top jaw from the Maslin but these are not hard to make from a piece of scrap.Use a 5" grinder wheel in new of very good condition for the frizzen. I split the foot of the frizzen using a milling machine and installed a roller made from drill rod.Some of the
first ones did not have this feature.I make (made) all my own screws and still do on the set triggers from 12L14.Frizzen spring was from the Shoults Ketland and was cast but I don't recall the number of the steel and reshaped it a bit.
   The original Ketland that Wallace Brown shot in local shoots was plainly marked and performed really well in spite of the old style tumbler and the first ones I made were like this and then I worked out a linked mainspring and it worked better and faster.I think maybe 1964 was the first of these for me and Wes Kindig bought several and sold them.I was done with the Army and National Guard by mid 1963 and  then
my shop was built and was up and running.A lot of work came out of that little building and now I'm winding down and no more labor intensive jobs will be done at any price.A few triggers once in a while and that's it.
Bob Roller

[HighUintas]

Bob, do you do any lockwork at all, say tuning or repairing other's locks that are not of your make?

[Bob Roller]

No,I do no work on any locks that I didn't make and have no plans to start making them again.
Thanks for the inquiry but I am making only triggers now and those on a once in a while basis.
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

This week I talked to a friend who has inquired about all the moulds and bit and pieces that were owned by the late Jerry Devaudreuil and was told that they wanted too much money and I also mentioned the lock moulds like the Shoults and the Ketland had VERY limited use and as far as I know,I was the only one ever to make a lock from the Ketland . The Shoults was copied by Mr.Cochran who made his own version. IF there is no need or demand for this lock then all it takes to make it might end up in a land fill someplace.There are moulds for two different Hawken caplocks and both used original locks for masters.One is from the Carson and the other from a J&S Hawken and I made a lot of locks with these and the hammers that go with them.I do hope these moulds can be saved and used but right now they are in limbo.
Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

Bob you are quite fortunate to be able to accept the rich accolades for your superior craftsmanship. It is unfortunate that many of the craftsman, and artists, were only appreciated after their passing. Congratulations old friend.

 Hungry Horse

[Dwshotwell]

Maybe this is a silly question, but this thread and a few other similar threads about quality components such as castings and even ramrod blanks that are no longer available has got me thinking:

Other than the talent / attention to detail required by artists like Bob Roller and Reeves Goerhing (spelling, I’m sure I have it wrong) what sort of monetary outlay and / or connections with foundries etc. are required to create quality lock components from molds or quality brass castings? I assume the costs mean that it would likely never be profitable to serve such a niche market, but is it insurmountable even if the goal was to break even and keep the “movement” going?

Probably unknowable but it’s been on my mind.

[Bob Roller]

I was told by a foundry owner that the quality control I wanted would bankrupt the government and I said it should be the way things are done anywhere on any endeavor. I know modern firearms are made by castings that are so good they can be assembled and taken out and shot.That level of quality control is not cheap and I was told by one of these makers,Ruger,that their foundry is owned by them and no outside contracts were wanted,taken in or needed for any reason.As you said,muzzle loaders are a niche market and cheap was forever the way.It has got better in the last 20 years and the locks and triggers made now are dependable even if fine detail is lacking.The days when I was asked to make main and sear springs for other locks is over and I never agreed to make them for anyone.I had enough to do to avoid my own mistakes and correcting foundry flubs were not on my "To do" list and still aren't.We are a group of geezers for the most part that learned to make needed things or do without.We make many of our tools or modify existing ones to suit our needs or ideas.My modifications of common bench grinders is an example from 6 years ago and I use them almost daily.More than once necessity has been the mother of invention and we are the fossilizing proof. .I enjoyed the challenge and regret not ONE thing.
Bob Roller

[Dwshotwell]

Thanks Bob. That’s sort of what I figured regarding the quality control needed and the cost involved. As a relative newcomer to the hobby, it’s interesting to hear folks talk about some of the stuff that was available a few years ago and isn’t now, but on the other hand I get the feeling that some of the components have gotten better or at least are available in a wider variety.

[Bob Roller]

Bob you are quite fortunate to be able to accept the rich accolades for your superior craftsmanship. It is unfortunate that many of the craftsman, and artists, were only appreciated after their passing. Congratulations old friend.

 Hungry Horse

HH,Thank you for the kind note and remarks.I tried to make the best locks and triggers I could with the tools and skills I had and
it seems to have worked.As far as recognition is concerned both now and after I shuffle off,"Don't bother with white satin when my old blue jeans will do". .
Bob Roller