Author Topic: Jedediah Smith's pistol  (Read 1972 times)

Offline RAT

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Jedediah Smith's pistol
« on: August 31, 2022, 02:00:55 AM »
I just received my copy of this year's Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Journal (vol 16) and there is an article titled... "Jedediah Smith's Twice-Stolen Pistol" by James C. Auld. The article has several photos of the pistol. I haven't had time to read the whole article yet. The annual journal is available from the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming. The price is $25.00 plus shipping. Their phone number is 307-367-4101.
Bob

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2022, 03:33:22 AM »
What does it say about the pistol?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Molly

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2022, 03:40:00 AM »
I'll bet it says if you buy the book you'll find out. ;D

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2022, 03:48:49 AM »
I'll bet it says if you buy the book you'll find out. ;D
If I get enough information to entice me, I might purchase the publication. If the gun is something generic, though I’ve always found Jedediah Smith to be an amazing historical figure, the gun itself would be of little interest to me.
Andover, Vermont

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2022, 05:57:01 AM »
So, buy the Journal already!!! It is a great history of what is actually. known about this fabulous historic pistol, (one of two originally) and takes it through the chain of ownership from the Santa Fe Trade Fair to the year it was stolen from the San Diego County Historical Society. The narrative includes some pertinent comments by experts at the time when it was in San Diego. The purpose of the article as I gather, is to initiate a modern day search for the gun. The recipient of the gun may no longer be alive and it may show up on the market one of these days. As a kid visiting the museum, I recall the gun and was not impressed with it. It is a typical low end, NE or European, no marks, no signature pistol, though it is my impression is that it was a St. Louis gun that looks a lot like a Hawken pistol auctioned off earlier this year. As I recall, when it was stolen, the local attitudes of the PD and the Museum authorities seemed to be relatively disinterested in the whole thing. The article also opens up a new inquiry into who really may have killed Smith.
Dick

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2022, 05:59:43 AM »
Jed was killed by Indians in 1831 while out ahead of the wagon train looking for water. His rifle, pistol and gear showed up in Santa Fe New Mexico not long after and claimed by his two brothers. In 1961 his pistol was stolen from a museum. It was nothing special as a pistol but historically in the Western fur trade an important piece.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2022, 08:12:11 AM »
Don't they believe his pistols were made by Creamer?
Tim A
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Offline RAT

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2022, 03:29:57 PM »
I received the journal in the mail yesterday afternoon. I skimmed it... but I still haven't had time to read the whole article. If you're not familiar with the journal... It's a pear-reviewed journal with articles related to fur trade history. It's published by the Sublette County Historical Society. The articles are very well researched. We're not talking about the 2 page articles that you see in Muzzle Blasts. This article is 21 pages long. This volume of the journal is 159 pages long.
Bob

Offline RAT

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2022, 06:25:20 AM »
OK... peer-reviewed... not pear-reviewed. Why a pear would review an article is beyond me.

Anyway... I finally had a chance to read the article. The main focus is on the provenance and chain of ownership of the pistol up until it's theft from the Junipero Serra Museum in 1961. More than 6 weeks after Smith's disappearance in 1831, the caravan he was leading arrived in Santa Fe. His 2 younger brothers, Austin and Peter, who were traveling with the caravan, discovered 2 pistols and other items they recognized as belonging to their brother. They were apparently traded to Mexican merchants and taken to Santa Fe. Over time they continued to be in the possession of the descendants of either of these 2 brothers. The article states that ONE of the pistols was on display at the museum and stolen. It doesn't say what happened to the other one, but it seems to have faded away fairly early in the provenance. It also states that Jedediah's "gun" was also recovered in Santa Fe, but there is no record of what became of it. A pair of saddle holsters were also recovered. They were on display, but it doesn't mention if they were stolen.

A separate "Appendix" to the article is written by Scott Walker. He describes the stolen pistol...

"The Smith pistol has the general architecture reminiscent of English duelling pistols from the first quarter of the 19th century. These characteristics include the shape of the handle or grip, the rounded trigger guard, the fore endcap, apparently made of horn, and its half-stock combined with a metal barrel rib."

"it was 15.5 inches in overall length, with a barrel length measuring 9.5 inches. They (museum staff) also estimated the size of the bore to be .50 caliber"

He states that "details apparent in the photographs include:"

"metal mounts, possibly silver, at the top of the grip, and the escutcheons for the barrel key on the sides of the fore stock"
"plain, uncarved, uncheckered grip"
"plain, open-grain wood"
"engraved lock plate that shows no sign of having been converted from flintlock"
"possible set trigger, indicated by the screw in front of the trigger"

note... this would be a single set trigger

"two transverse bolts to attach the lock to the pistol with no side plate"
"the manner in which the percussion nipple is mounted at the breech of the barrel is unusual, and might be a bolster"

note... one of the photos in the article clearly shows it to be a patent style hooked breech plug and standing tang. The nipple protrudes from the top near the oblique flat and not from the side flat. The lock plate is not cut to fit a conventional bolster.

He also mentions...
"Some similarities between the Smith pistol and the work of gunsmith Philip Creamer have been noted by knowledgeable gun collectors."

Personally... I think this is wishful thinking. Just because Creamer is known to have made English style half stock pistols doesn't mean he made this pistol. They were a very popular style. Many American gunsmiths made them, and many were purchased from makers in England and sold here. I haven't seen anything in the photos that cry out "Creamer". The wood appears to be walnut, but the photos are black & white which makes it hard for me to tell if it's American or European walnut. What engraving is visible doesn't look like the same quality as Creamer's work. If I were to guess... the pistol shown looks like a less expensive English import. Other opinions may vary.

Before anyone says it... no... I won't post photos from the article. That would be inappropriate. You'll need to purchase the journal if you want the photos. Sorry.
Bob

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2022, 07:39:03 AM »
R-did you read my earlier post? My comments on the pistol are based on my having actually seen it and having seen Creamer and Hawken St. Louis arms made at that time. There is now some thought that the Comancheros. (Mexican Traders) may have actually murdered Smith. There was little evidence that the Indians had been in the area for some time, and he was alone when killed. As to who made the guns, they are wholly unmarked, no proofs, no signature, nada & nunca!
My own opinion is just as I stated earlier; that the gun(s) resemble locally made arms. Can't recall the auction house, but in their display at the last Las Vegas Winter Arms Show they had a signed Hawken pistol that was very close to the missing Smith arm, which was a utilitarian piece with little to no ornamentation. There were two saddle pommel holsters and one or both have survived; the Journal article tells you where they are today. As so often happened in earlier times, a family member may have requested one of the pair and they were separated with no thought to leaving any record of the transaction. Creamer made some great artistic guns, but he also apparently made some pieces for the 'trade' that were made to use and not look at. The stock architecture is very local looking, but it is also somewhat generic for English, NE and Southern guns. The stock was fairly light colored, that nonetheless appeared to be walnut. The lock and hammer alignment was as you describe it and this is a fairly uncommon design. The gun was not converted from flint to cap; it is original. Glad that you purchased the Journal; I know Scott and have discussed this matter with him. I do not know the author, but would certainly would like to meet him. Regards, Dick

Offline OLUT

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2022, 03:50:19 PM »
What's the big secret? Lots of info out there ( but nothing new). Just GOOGLE him or go to the Jedediah Smith society website




Offline RAT

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2022, 02:27:02 AM »
Dick... I've read your comments, and agree with everything you said. Clearly you know more about this subject than I do.

I haven't read the article written in 1984 from the post above. Keep in mind that was almost 40 years ago. I'm guessing a LOT of people on here haven't read that article. Until today, I didn't realize it existed. I was still in the Army in 1984. The first I even heard of this pistol was from the book "Firearms of the American West", which was also written in 1984. I bought my copy in 1989. I know there are people on here that were around in 1961, when it was stolen, and remember it well. I wasn't even born yet. I'm 58 years old.

I hear a lot of... "has done a good deal of research about the maker of the pistol, which was probably Creamer." OK... why? If the pistol wasn't marked, why do people think it was Creamer? I'm of the belief that this has become an "urban myth" kind of thing where nobody can tell you WHY or WHERE this idea came from, but they believe it as gospel, and keep repeating it. I'm more hard-wired to "trust, but verify". If I don't know where the idea came from, and I'm unable to independently confirm it from multiple sources, I can't take it as fact. I will also believe my own eyes, and I'm not seeing Creamer here. Could it be? Sure. But I'd need to see more convincing evidence.

The reason I made this original post is that this topic has been discussed on here before. I was hoping the article would provide information many of us didn't know. It did for me. I was not aware of the chain of ownership until now. A previous post by someone also asked for photos. This article has about 6 photos, which is more than the single photo I've seen before. Some of these photos are close to 100 years old, and none of the photos are of the high resolution quality we expect to see these days. The photo on the first page of the article is actually not bad. If anyone is looking for photos, this article is not a bad source to have. 
Bob

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Jedediah Smith's pistol
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2022, 11:19:08 PM »
Hey Bob, here's hoping that one of us will actually find this gun on a table in some gun show. Glad that you support the Museum, they are a really good group of people. As you point out there is no way we will know more about the gun until it is found(?) so whoever made it is a moot discussion. I was about 15 at the time I saw it at the Presidio Park Museum, (I am now 85 years old) so some details have fallen out of my head as of this time. By the ignition, etc. Creamer was the closest type of gun that I could find, but that is about it. It would be great if this gun turns up once again. It has happened rather recently back East. An Oerter Rev. War gun was recovered after a theft period of 40 years. There have been a few others, too. It may be that the author wrote the article to renew a search for the gun given that many years have passed and this may be a good time to put it into the spotlight. Guess we will just have to wait and see. Think that I mentioned the uncommonality of  the ignition style used. I have seen many American made guns and could count on the fingers of both hands the number of these weapons. I have only one and it is a swivel breech made by J. Hillegas that was made with this system. It is in the ALR Library. You can see that the nipples are set into a patent breech and are situated on the quarter flat. Always enjoy your posts!  Regards,  Dick