Single vs double pinned pipes

[HighUintas]

I see that some people add two pins to retain their RR pipes instead of one and I've seen it stated the reason is to keep the pipe from getting loose.

I'm working on inletting my pipes now. If the inletting is good, would two pins actually help that much? This rifle will get tired around the mountains, so if two pins are actually useful, I may do that.

[smylee grouch]

There are some originals out there with two pins. One is the somewhat famous rifle owned by Mt. Man M. Medina (sp) which has the entry pipe double pinned.

[flehto]

I usually used only one pin and made the pipe tabs  to accommodate one pin. Never liked to cut long slots in the web for a long tab for 2 pins. Shown below are my RR pipes......Fred

[Mike Brooks]

Refer to originals.

[Dennis Glazener]

On my Gillespie builds I quite often would use double pins on the entry pipe (vecause I have seen originals using 2 pins on the entry) and a single pin on the others. Once in a while, I used 2 on the forward pipe, just because I liked the look.
Dennis

[blienemann]

HU, the best answer is that from Mike. Look to the old guns that you are interested in.

This question came to me many years back, and I remember my first KRA Show. After I was overwhelmed with all that was there to see, I later went around and looked just for that detail - and several others. Some builders used double pins for all pipes. It was very common over all the decades to see the front pipe double pinned - and this makes sense for strength, when a twig gets caught between stock and ramrod. Those little details of function and of what was historically done are fun for me. Bob

[HighUintas]

The ones I have seen have had a single pin. But, I'm just thinking about the utility. Maybe I'll double pin the front pipe.

Thanks!

[Birddog6]

I saw this question many years ago. It was said Some said 2 is stronger,  Others said 1 is stronger.  I am one not to accept the reasoning "jus cause someone else did it 40-11 yrs ago, it is best"  To me, that doesn't mean it was the Best way in any way, it simply means it was done that way. They did what they did & they used what they had. 

So I was building a rifle one time & broke the forestock. To me that stock is now scrap. (think what you want)  I built another stock & this broken one sat in the corner for 2-3 yrs.  Couple years later I am building another rifle & cut off about 24" of the forestock  & made a halfstock out of it. Tossed the cutoff in the scrap maple.

This question came up again on another board & got me to thinking. Heck I will just test them & see what is stronger. I look & I have all kinds of walnut & maple forestock cutoffs in this big wood crate of pieces.

You would be quite surprised to see how strong a #4 finish nail is thru wood & thru a RR pipe.  I weighed right at 200# and the time & that pipe in a forestock with 1 finish nail would hold me up.  Oh yes I could yank on it & bend the nail & pull it it or split the wood, but still it held me @ over 200# ??      Anyway, in MY testing,  I found 1 pin stronger in Walnut than 2 pins, because the walnut split out easier on 2 pins, as they are so close together.   
In Maple I found 1 good inlet pipe with 1 pin extremely strong & 2 stronger, but possibly a overkill.

ALL tests bent my finish nail.  Double nail bent the nails & then split the wood. Single nails bent the nail & just damaged the wood Inside the inlet, NOT on the outside, unless I REALLY yanked on it & it then split the wood as well.  I tried  a Drill Rod & it immediately spit the wood on every test.  My conclusion was 1 nail was sufficient & the finish nail was more ? forgiving I guess you would say, than the drill rod.

That being said, one is NOT supposed to be yanking around with 180-300# of force on a RR pipe, but this inquiring mind of mine just had to know.

Testing: Nuthin fancy. Testing piece was 4" long.  Forestock piece was already inlet for a 7/8" straight barrel.  2 bicycle hooks up into the 2x10" floor joyce in my basement.  Inlet pipes tight & pin. Put in hooks.  Took a 3/8" #8 grade bolt 6" long & bent it to a L shape & welded a 6" bolt across the head & now have a big T with a L on the end of it.  Test piece in the hooks & L thru the RR pipe & I hung on it & yanked around til it broke.  2 tests on black walnut with 1 pin, & same with maple. RR pipe was iron & reusable. 
Repeated on walnut, same pipe with 2 holes & then with 1 hole.  First easing my weight & then yanking if it didn't bend or break.  Then tested the same allover with drill rod 1 time on each with 1 hole.  Note: in my testing, the Maple was considerably stronger.

Yes I know, not very scientific.   That was nothing to me bending a barrel over a tractor tire, but that is a whole dif  can of worms. )  But this testing did answer what I wanted to know. Do I want 1 or 2 pins & what for pins.

Then I go to what Rifle I am building & build it how I want, normally with 1 pin, but if a certain builder used two pins, so did I sometimes.

In My mind, I was convinced that obviously 2 pins was stronger than one & They Definitely Are. With 2 pins I didn't bend them as much.  The WOOD is what cannot take the weight.  Thus 2 pins close together on a RR pipe broke out easier than 1 pin & they also did more wood damage than 1 pin
. 
Then I am thinking, Ok, use the drill rod, pin won't bend, etc.  Ok, now if you really hang it up in the seat belt putting it in the car or hang it on the grape vine from $#*!,  it is Definitely gonna break the RR, or rip the RR pipe wood out, rather than bend the nail & a easy repair.

I have used finish nails every since. Seems like they are .061 or 2".  I usually use a 1/16" bit  Others use 1/16" drill rods & they like those.  Your choice.

Anyway, that is my scoop on it, for what it is worth.

Also note:  I have been shooting ML's since 1978 & have build a few. Hunted with them for Hundreds of hunting excursions.  I have broken 2 RR's in my life while hunting. Both were broken getting them hung in vines & where the RR had creeped out unknowing to me,  &  both of them broke at a Very Light Cut/Score Ring I had made around the RR to show me I was fully loaded or not.  After the 2nd one happened, it hit me I don't need a @!*% ring, it is pretty obvious if it is fully loaded or not by how much RR I have hanging out of the barrel after loading.    But I was young at it & afraid I was going to dryball, etc.  It also taught me to Never have a straight Ramrod.  It can & will creep out on you.  If it is straight I intentionally bow & temper the RR.

[HighUintas]

Thanks for that info, Keith!

I really enjoy reading everyone's experience here.

[flehto]

Hi Mike...lately you've been saying "look at originals"....nicely said but I didn't  have access to originals and didn't  want to spend the time  or money doing so like many other amateur builders.  That doesn't mean that I don't look closely  at the pics and if I don't find an answer, I do it "my way" and sometimes find an original that has it done the same way.

I didn't build museum copies so looking at original LRs was only  in pics which most of the time sufficed to enable me to  build a LR that looked like the intended style.

If I was a professional builder like you and a few others, I also would do more research of originals...afterall,  building is your  source of income and  being  able to "duplicate" a particular original  gun widens your market......Fred

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Mike...lately you've been saying "look at originals"....nicely said but I didn't  have access to originals and didn't  want to spend the time  or money doing so like many other amateur builders.  That doesn't mean that I don't look closely  at the pics and if I don't find an answer, I do it "my way" and sometimes find an original that has it done the same way.

I didn't build museum copies so looking at original LRs was only  in pics which most of the time sufficed to enable me to  build a LR that looked like the intended style.

If I was a professional builder like you and a few others, I also would do more research of originals...afterall,  building is your  source of income and  being  able to "duplicate" a particular original  gun widens your market......Fred

I have always said refer to originals, not just lately. I have no idea why you can't afford reference material or take the time to look at originals, I made the sacrifices to do it and I would hope others that seriously want to build these guns would do the same.  BTW, I wouldn't say my stuff is always historically correct. I don't think I have ever made a bench copy of anything.

[HighUintas]

For what it's worth, I do have a long list of books I would like to buy, study all of the information I can find in the antique section of this forum and all of the other information I can find on the internet regarding originals, have quite a few pictures saved to my computer for reference, and always inspect originals in museums when I have an opportunity to do so.

I'm making an effort to be a good student 

[Mike Brooks]

For what it's worth, I do have a long list of books I would like to buy, study all of the information I can find in the antique section of this forum and all of the other information I can find on the internet regarding originals, have quite a few pictures saved to my computer for reference, and always inspect originals in museums when I have an opportunity to do so.

I'm making an effort to be a good student 

I don't know where you live but make an effort to got to what ever KY rifle shows you can.

[Darkhorse]

My understanding concerning using 2 pins instead of one is.......2 pins add strength and help keep a RR pipe straight because as the wood drys out it will often shrink. I always use 2 on any rifle I build. I have one here a little over 20 years old and all the pipes are as tight as can be.

[PIKELAKE]

I agree with Darkhorse. I always use two pins. A rifle came out of storage and low and behold the entry pipe was loose. I know that when I built this rifle, every pipe was tight. Wood can shrink; look at old guns and see the metal standing proud of the wood. Using only one pin, it will act as a pivot point and the pipe can rock; how then do you tighten it back up? Drill another hole? I just go ahead and use two pins and save myself a job down the line. But what do I know?; I'm just a sausage grinder.  JZ

[HighUintas]

I agree with Darkhorse. I always use two pins. A rifle came out of storage and low and behold the entry pipe was loose. I know that when I built this rifle, every pipe was tight. Wood can shrink; look at old guns and see the metal standing proud of the wood. Using only one pin, it will act as a pivot point and the pipe can rock; how then do you tighten it back up? Drill another hole? I just go ahead and use two pins and save myself a job down the line. But what do I know?; I'm just a sausage grinder.  JZ

This is what I was thinking and concerned about. :/

[Birddog6]

If the wood shrinks it shrinks. How many pins it has will have no bearing on the wood shrinking or not. In fact
it could shrink could leave a gap on each side of the pin, not the depth. It could also shrink & the pin fall out. 
It could also Gain moisture & split the pin hole or bend the pin or 2 pins.

That is why when I build a rifle I slot the hole the Underlug pin goes thru & I try to Center the pin in that slot. That
way if it shrinks a tad or swells a tad, I have a little room for this either way.  I have taken rifles apart & find the underlug pins bent into a U.

Moisture content at the time of the build, and exposure To moisture after the build or the lack of moisture after the
build, will determine if the wood shrinks or swells. 1, 2 or 5 pins will not save it. 

Sealing it will will deter it allot, but not totally eliminate it because you simply cannot seal it 100%. I seal under everything I can before final assembly. I even swab the RR hole with a sealant trying to keep the wood moisture content the same as long as I can. I seal the barrel channel, at the breech, under the buttplate, toeplate, lock inlet, anything I can get sealant to, I seal it.

In the end, it all  boils down to, I want 1 pin or 2 pins, and that is totally up to the builder..

[Eric Kettenburg]

If the pipe is inlet well and pinned well (solidly) either one or two will suffice.  This being said, there are many antique rifles with two at the forward pipe, two on every pipe, one on every pipe etc.  So the bottom line is - do what you want, OR if you are mimicing a particular builder or style, do that.  If you are ripping pipes out of stocks, you've got bigger issues. 

Now how is THAT for clarification?   

I personally like to use two on the forward pipe.  Just me. 

Maybe I'll start using three just to REALLY mess with the heads of folks 200 years from now.

[Fly Navy]

I don't like or want any more holes in my stock than necessary. That's why I only use one pin per pipe.

[T*O*F]

Maybe I'll start using three just to REALLY mess with the heads of folks 200 years from now.

I did that once.  An error in planning placed the underlugs where the thimbles were supposed to go.  I cut notches in the thimble tabs and used 3 pins.

[flehto]

I've always used one pin for pipes and the reason is that the inlet is excellent and seeing the hole is drilled w/ the pinned bbl in the stock, the tab height  is checked so it isn't  too high so that it doesn't rest on the bbl. A short,  size dowel is inserted into the pipe and the pipe is clamped tightly. I use case hardened 1/16 dia rod for the pin. Even after many  years, the RR pipes  are still tight. ......Fred

[Dave B]

Mike is right on when he says study the real deal. In person is best if you can swing it. You might be surprised if you start asking around about who has origninals. Some museums have them but just are not on display. Some times its just a few phone calls to make it happen.  Some orignial makers made their RR pipes with their own combination of pins. Take Peter Berry. So far to date of the ones I have seen He puts two pins in the 1 st RR pipe at the muzzle end and all others have one pin. There may be on of his rifles out there that he did only single pins but the orignial I got to hold in my hands was done this way. I started to look at the photos of the others published and so far all of them are done the same.

[HighUintas]

I ended up deciding to do a single pin on the front due to the location of the pipe and the front key. Didn't want to move the pipe too far back to adequately space the key hole from the pipe tab.

My inletting on the middle and front is pretty good. Just started the entry pipe.

My skill of filing bands into pipes is pretty poor. But I'm relatively proud of my amateurish looking entry pipe








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[flehto]

For starting the grooves in a RR pipe.....slip the pipe onto a snug fitting mandrel {possibly use a shim} and  chuck it in the drill press and rotate while a surface gage  w/  a sharp pointer makes a shallow groove. The grooves are then filed deeper w/ a triangular file which picks up the scribed lines An adjustable square is used to locate the grooves on each end by  scribing a short line which is picked up by the sharp  pointer of the surface gage.....Fred

[HighUintas]

For starting the grooves in a RR pipe.....slip the pipe onto a snug fitting mandrel {possibly use a shim} and  chuck it in the drill press and rotate while a surface gage  w/  a sharp pointer makes a shallow groove. The grooves are then filed deeper w/ a triangular file, . An adjustable square is used to locate the grooves on each end by . scribing a short line which is picked up by the pointer on the surface gage.....Fred

Thank you. That is a good idea. I located the line in two places with calipers, laid down tape as a guide, made a groove with a jewelers saw, then filed. Still crooked    I'll give your method a shot next time.