Author Topic: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate  (Read 1451 times)

Online smart dog

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Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« on: September 25, 2022, 01:10:10 AM »
Hi,
I have this original lock plate and I would like to identify the firearms it might have been from.


It is 5 5/16" long by 15/16" wide behind the pan.  It is marked "Ketland & Co", which likely means early 19th century but it also has the crown and "GR" indicating British military service.  It could be pistol size but I am not sure.  Moreover, I was not aware that Ketland &Co was involved in any British military contracts.  Did they provide completed arms to the government during the early 19th century? There is no crown and arrow stamp indicating government ownership but maybe that was discontinued in the 19th century, perhaps during the Napoleonic emergencies?

dave
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Offline Feltwad

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Re: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2022, 10:41:31 PM »
Enclosed are locks from a sxs flintlock shotgun by Ketland
Feltwad








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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2022, 06:05:37 PM »
To answer your question...
K & Co. not only held military contracts but were one of the largest musket contractors during the Napoleonic Wars. As far as I know, these arms were not marked with their name. Their Volunteer muskets...made for what was effectively private sale to volunteer units usually were marked. But...the crown and GR does not mean government purchase. It was commonly used on a variety of arms, including export guns and has no real significance regarding usage.

As to your lockplate...if I had to guess I'd say it was from the volunteer period, roughly 1795-1804. Depending on the size it could be for a musket or a rifle or even a pistol. Huge numbers of arms were produced for the Volunteer forces and they did not have to follow the Ordnance patterns precisely. Thus we see muskets with flat locks etc... Volunteer arms are nearly always of relatively high quality, often better made than their Ordnance cousins. They were subject to Ordnance Office inspection so they are never below the Ordnance standard. It was conventional for these arms to bear the Royal Cypher but they would not have had Ordnance proof marks or Ordnance Storekeeper's marks.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 12:55:54 AM by JV Puleo »

Online smart dog

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Re: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2022, 01:16:03 AM »
Hi,
Thank you Feltwad and Joe.  Joe, I am pretty sure the lock was from some sort of cavalry pistol from the late 18th and early 19th centuries.  I am pretty sure I have the flat double throated cock as well.  It certainly is not a cheap trade gun lock because it is double bridled.  I think I am going to reconstruct it.  I'll order components for a New Land Service pistol from TRS.  Thanks again for your input and insight.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2022, 08:17:19 AM »
The cheap "trade" locks that Americans are so familiar with are virtually unknown in the UK. They were made for export, not for the domestic market which was constituted quite differently than the American market. I think you are probably right about it's use on a pistol. I hadn't tought of the overall length when I wrote that so a musket is probably out of the equation. The K's also supplied "Baker" style rifles to some Volunteer organizations so it could equally be from one of those but there were  a lot more pistols.

Offline Niall

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Re: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2022, 02:26:40 PM »
Hi,
 I'll order components for a New Land Service pistol from TRS. 

dave

E.J. Blackley in the UK also has the parts for the Flat faced Baker lockhttps://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Baker-Flat-Faced-Lock-Baker-Set.html
With the current falling value of sterling to the dollar prices are comparable.


Online smart dog

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Re: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2022, 02:48:50 PM »
Hi Niall,
Thank you.  I actually have an order placed with Kevin Blackley for 6 dueling pistol locks.  The the thin bolster on this lock plate makes me think it is from a pistol but it could be similar to carbine locks from about 1790-1800.  It is too small for a Baker lock.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Niall

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Re: Original Ketland & Co. lock plate
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2022, 06:35:48 PM »
Dave.

The 'Baker' lock nomenclature refers to the style of the lock. These lock types, of various sizes,  were used on pistols and  carbines as well as on the iconic Baker rifle. The East India Company also used them extensively on their arms. The one offered by Blackley  is very close in size to the one you are discussing, 134mm (5.28") x 25mm (0.98")....I agree, it's more than likely from a pistol.
I think it's referred to as the 'flat india pattern pistol lock.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 06:52:37 PM by Niall »