A good place to start load development

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

Where is a good place to start load development for a flint rifle with a GM 42" , .45 barrel ?   

I have .446,  .451 and .453 RB, and both Goex and Schuetzen in ffg and fffg, along with good patching from .008 to .022.  I want to stick with my BW/tallow lube and plan to use square cut patching, and a short starter.     

Has anyone noticed a point in increasing powder charges where decreasing returns in fps are noted? or the occurance of two points where accuracy is very good: i.e. 1350 and 1650 fps?   

Thanks, this is always the hardest part for me, making a good trials plan.  Lon

[Mike R]

I have a GM .45 barrel yet to be sighted in myself.  The maker recommended a .440 ball, so your selections may be a bit tight.  My old .45--a Green River barreled rifle--shoots .440s [easy to load] or .445s [hard to load] both accurately.  I'd start with your ball closest to .445 and 50 grs fffg and work up to a hunting load.  50 grs fffg often shoots very accurately at 50 yds in .45 GM barrels I have witnessed, but I use closer to 65 gr fffg for hunting.

P.S. I shoot Goex...

[Dphariss]

A 42" 45 GM in a rile I built for a friend shoots EXTREMELY well with 55 gr of 1.5f Swiss  .010 patch with water soluble oil that is allowed to dry (evaporate all the water) and a .451 ball.
I have seen this rifle shoot 15 shots into about 3/4" at 60 yards. Hole in the back board was just large enough to pass my thumb.
This was wiped between shots.

Dan

[Daryl]

Lon - I have just such a barrel. It's accuracy loads are with .445" balls as I haven't yet tired anything larger. With 3F, the accuracy load with a grase of oil patch is 70gr. 3F and 80gr. with 2F, both GOEX. Loading is quite easy and the bore get cleaned between shots as you load the next one. Fouling doesn't built betweens shots. The rifle goes a full winter or summer trail for us, which is in the neighbourhood of 80 shots with no wiping necessary, yet delivers just as good accuracy at 50 yards as my Goodeoin .40 - in the 1/2" range.

[Mike R]

Yeah, a .451 ball and a .01 patch [.471 loaded] ~= .440 ball and .015 patch [.470 loaded].  I just find it easier to load the second, third, etc rounds with the smaller ball/thicker patch.  When I went from .445 to .440 in my other .45 accuracy did not suffer but ease of reloading made all the difference in the world.  I have never had access to Swiss powder, unfortunately.  I have seen one hole groups at 50 yds from GM .45 barrels using .440 balls and 50 gr fffg Goex.  Don't know what patch he used. There are alot of combos that probably work, but personally I stay away from too tight loads, not being primarily a target shooter.  Each to his own, though.  Good info on the Swiss load.
Daryl posted as I was writing--good info there too.

[northmn]

When I have chronographed I have noticed a point of decreasing returns.  The Lyman catalog also shows those points.  In my 50, after 80 grains of GOEX 3f I gain little which gives about 1875 fps.  There is also the issue of performance.  A claim has been made that after 1800 fps you are wasting powder as the ballistics of a round ball are such that the losses in velocity increase at a greater rate.  Accuracy can enter in here such that an accurate load at 1900 is better than an inaccurate at 1800, for instance.  There may be some close range advantage.  However trying to make a magnum out of a roundball caliber does not work and if more power is somehow needed get a bigger bore.  Most used about 65-70 grains of 3f (or Daryls 80 grs of 2f) as a hunting load which delivers in that neighbor hood.

DP

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

Lots of good info here to ponder.  Thanks.   

I think I will start with the .451, patching well greased and thick enough to need a good whack to move down the barrel and wait for the gun rod. I mostly hunt so like to set a rifle up to load  reasonably with the ramrod, even though most of my shooting for fun uses a range rod.  I want good accuracy but am willing to settle for a little less in the woods. Like one or two here, I'm not 20 anymore , so the eye and arm have plenty of experience, and a little less accuracy no matter the gun.   

For this gun I want to try that often noted thread stitchery holding the patch on the ball, patches being well greased and then squished in a stack for lube uniformity, and hopefully get 1650 fps or so with good accuracy.   But there a variety of things to look into so far.  Lon

[Dphariss]

Yeah, a .451 ball and a .01 patch [.471 loaded] ~= .440 ball and .015 patch [.470 loaded].  I just find it easier to load the second, third, etc rounds with the smaller ball/thicker patch.  When I went from .445 to .440 in my other .45 accuracy did not suffer but ease of reloading made all the difference in the world.  I have never had access to Swiss powder, unfortunately.  I have seen one hole groups at 50 yds from GM .45 barrels using .440 balls and 50 gr fffg Goex.  Don't know what patch he used. There are alot of combos that probably work, but personally I stay away from too tight loads, not being primarily a target shooter.  Each to his own, though.  Good info on the Swiss load.
Daryl posted as I was writing--good info there too.

It works for him. Its a match rifle and he wipes every shot. Saw him shoot a 10 shot string measure match with a total string within 1/2" of the record chunk gun record.
He has other rifles he hunts with. Where he hunts a 45 is not big enough for the critters sometimes encounters so how it loads dirty is irrelevant. All that matters is how well it shoots.
I don't care for them that tight but if I could come up with some balls I would like to try .451 in my sons flintlock.
Don't get too serious I posted the load because I knew everyone was going to recommend 440-445s so I thought I would be different . The guy is a SERIOUS competitor and when you shoot against him you better have things sorted out.
It depends on the gun. I once had a 50 that shot really well, under 2" at 100 several times, with a fit that did not require a starter 490 with a ticking patch. But my eyes were better back about 1980.
Some have never tried linen patches. Linen is far tougher than cotton and compresses much less. A rifle the loads fairly snug with a cotton patch will be hard to impossible to load with the same thickness linen.
Some rifles don't like really slick loads. I am playing with this with my 16 bore right now, or will be when the wind drops. It 25-30 now . I have some oil that loads pretty hard in my 54 pistol but seems to shoot better in the 16 bore, but it needs testing. I did some experimenting with the pressure on the barrel, from the keys, and found that I had really screwed up so I fixed that yesterday and got it down to about 3" at 50 from sitting position in a 15mph cross wind. Did about 4" at 100 sitting with no wind before a I "fixed" it. Will try fix plan "B" perhaps today when/if I get my hunting/firewood truck running right.

I get the idea that a lot of folks here do not do comprehensive load development. I do far too little anymore, no longer have a range within 40 miles and shooting is a PITA when I have to  bring and set up everything. It takes a lot of work to really figure out a rifle and know just how well it will really shoot. Most, myself included often stop at "good enough" but when I go down to Cody I hate doing badly and I have not been doing well. But I have a new 54 GM for the 54 flint and will see what that does in a few days. After firewood etc.

Dan

[Roger Fisher]

For whatever it's worth and if she were mine.   And this is for target and woodswlk
shooting - I like 'em tight (the patch and ball combo)!!!!   Anyway I'd start with a .451 and around .016 or such tightly woven tough patching and spit, with 50 3'f Goex or Schuetzen.  I have found that either powder groups the same in my old Getz (No not him - the barrel)...   at 30 yds from a good rest padded rest but not toooo padded..  Get her to group then move out. And check the shot patching.

All this after 4/0 wool tight on the jag and about 75 or so trips thru the bore, to get rid of any machining hooks in there.

Did I say I use a short starter (long enough to get beyond that frt sight dovetail and sameo for the upper barrel tennon....

That's what I would do; but differetn strokes for different folks.....

[Mike R]

Green Mt published the following data about loads, but after recommending either .440 or .445, did not say which they used:  42" .45 GM barrel with 1:60 twist--- 60 gr [fffg Goex for all]=MV 1876fps, 70gr=MV1991fps, 80 gr=2144fps, 90 gr=2213fps.  At 50 yds V had fallen to between 1337-1606fps for these loads and at 100yds the V was between 1087-1141fps. At 100yds E=348 to 383 fpe, so your gain going from 60 to 90 gr fffg was a mere 35fpe at 100yds.  But at 50 yds, the difference was 490-760 fpe--this leads me [and others] to take the .45 as a 50 yd deer rifle....

[B.Habermehl]

 If it were mine I'd start with 50 gr of fffg and a .440 or .445 gia ball and work up. These guns are a law unto their selves and  have their own preferences.  My GM .45s liked ,440 dia balls and .015 patching, 50 gr and 80 gr loads of goex fffg powder. Your results WILL vary. Expiriment and have fun doing it. This is the real joy of shootin these guns any how!

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

Looks like the chrony will have to come out at some point. Yes, Its thick hunting here except for agricultural areas, and I have long limited my shots to 50 yards or so for our deer. and they are commonly closer.  Lon

[northmn]

I have almost always gotten best results with a little larger ball and slightly thinner patching as a 445/015 tend to shoot better than a 440/020 even though the smaller ball load may be tighter.  It seems like taking up bore space with lead works better.  However, I found a 451 ball a bit tight in a 45, even in Douglas barrels.  As for hunting with a rifle, I am leaning more and more to treating them like a true single shot and loading a tighter load.  A short starter takes up little room in my gear.  Reloading speed does not seem to mean much in my experience as if you miss the deer are gone or will be by the time you get reloaded and if you hit do you need to reload?  One could carry a block with an easy load for an instance where it may matter.  I even field clean the gun after shooting with damp patches carried for the purpose as I feel we tend to follow up too quickly at times as in a liver hit.

DP 

[Daryl]

Both my .45 and .40 cal rifles show better accuracy with the larger balls over smaller ones. The examples I've tested are .395" and .400" in the .40cal., and .440" and .445" in the .45.  In both rifles, the larger balls are more accurate.

in the .69, a 15 bore ball (.677") with very heavy .030" denim patch (that is completely reusable for exactly the same accuracy for several subsequent shots) is NOT as accurate as a .684" ball with either a .022" denim patch or the same .030" denim patch.  The heavy patch is the most accurate load, better than anything looser.

My .58 Enfield shoots just fine with a .562" ball and .020" denim patch. The bore is a tight .574", so that ball is .012" smaller than the bore it's going in to. The rifling is only .003" deep at the muzzle, then gets deeper towards the breech, which is .012" deep.  The bore remains .574" for it's entire length - only the rifling depth changes (same as original US military Minnie rifles of the 1850's & .60's). This short 24" bl. rifle shoots more accurately with a .575" pure lead ball and a .018" denim patch, but of course, getting the ball flush with the muzzle takes a heavier blow of the starter's knob. Ones hand must be fairly tough or it gets sore.  Using the smaller, looser .562" ball allows me to use WW metal with the same .020" denim patch.

So - all guns have their preferences, BUT - almost without exception, they'll shoot best with a tighter combination.  Exceptions might be out there, but it takes a lot of testing and at least a couple of pounds of powder to find a rifle's 'best' accuracy, not only what's 'good enough' for the persieved job at hand. The bigger the bore, the more pounds of powder it takes to test all variables.

Many guys pick a descent patch, then a ball mould that's easily aquired, then merely adjust the loads to find the best accuracy with that powder #, that patch and that ball diameter.  That's only testing one variable.  The ball size is another variable, the patch thickness is another variable and the lube is another variable and the powder # is another variable - not to mention different powder makes, which are not available here.  You guys down South have the last variable - lucky- or not depends on how you look at testing rifles.

My last range test was with the .32 Ten. rifle & I accomplished one variable only - the powder charge - that took over 75 shots with not enough rounds per charge to test for consistency.  I need to now double and triple check my previous results, let alone testing the other variables.  Testing is only as complicated as we make it, or allow it to be, but it also makes a big difference in how competitive we're going to be - or perhaps want to be.

A poorer shot like myself needs an exceptionally accurate load to be competitive. Guys like Taylor don't need load development over the standard recipes we've developed over the years, loads that shoot reasonably well in all guns.  Guys like Taylor, Mark and Neil can shoot offhand almost as well as the load they're shooting will print off the bags while I need all my ducks in line to best him/them and sometimes, only sometimes, it works. Sure makes me feel good when it does. Makes it all worth while.

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

My experience is shooting a GRRW 45  barrel with a .451 and a .010.  Apparently the GM is a bit tighter. I may have to start with the .446 and just see what happens. I would rather have the first shot shoot more accurately, even if it loads tighter and use a peg and a short starter for later shots. The GRRW worked very well with 50 grains of fffg.   

I 'll have to check for that GM  chrono data that Mike R. noted .  It's odd too that GM would reccommend ball sizes 6 thoudandths different.  I haven't seen that much difference on a 45, maybe in a smooth 20 or a rifled 58.   Lon

[Mike R]

My experience is shooting a GRRW 45  barrel with a .451 and a .010.  Apparently the GM is a bit tighter. I may have to start with the .446 and just see what happens. I would rather have the first shot shoot more accurately, even if it loads tighter and use a peg and a short starter for later shots. The GRRW worked very well with 50 grains of fffg.   

I 'll have to check for that GM  chrono data that Mike R. noted .  It's odd too that GM would reccommend ball sizes 6 thoudandths different.  I haven't seen that much difference on a 45, maybe in a smooth 20 or a rifled 58.   Lon

My old GRRW .45 was a tight but usable fit with a .445 and .015 patch [~=to your .451 and .01 patch] and it liked 50 gr fffg as well, but since it shot 50 yd 1" groups with 65 gr fffg that is what I used for hunting.  Because this combo loaded tight and was too tight on follow-ups, I tried .440 ball and .015 patch in the GRRW .45 and it also shot very well with 50 gr fffg--enough to win a couple of offhand matches with it a few years back [I don't typically shoot competitions].  I have yet to test my new GM .45 for loads, but I have seen them shoot very tight groups with .440 and 50 gr fffg [I assume ticking patch, but did not notice at the time what the fellows were shooting].