Austin & Halleck-Provo-Utah

[Chocktaw Brave]

I picked this up at a local gun show, what’s the story behind this rifle?
It has a 32 inch barrel, all iron furniture, 50 caliber, 1:28 twist. It appears to be a lot better quality than a Traditions or CVA rifle.

I know the faster twist is good for conical bullets, but will it still shoot round balls accurately?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It will likely shoot round balls with a pistol powder charge, ie:  25 or 30 gr. 3Fg., and a tightly patched ball.

[Chocktaw Brave]

Thanks,
Is that enough powder to shoot effectively at 100 yards? Or just more accurate?

I know it helps stabilize the longer conical projectiles, but what does the faster twist do to a patched round ball?

[Daryl]

Pistol charges in a rifle will feel like squib loads.  Some people shoot well with their pistols at longer ranges.
I guess you'll just have to take the bit in your mouth and try it. Nothing beats experience.

[Jeff Murray]

If you plan to shoot at 100 yards, light loads such as 30 grains are going to give you a relatively slow velocity which will result in a rainbow like trajectory and more wind drift than a heavier load would at that range.  You might start at 50 yards and see what range of powder charges will produce the desired group sizes.

[Chocktaw Brave]

Sounds like I might have to stick to the cynical bullets if I’m going after big game.
I have a mould that will cast these;

[smylee grouch]

With those light pistol loads at 100 yds I would think the ball will be in knuckle ball mode and coming in from above not horizontal.   

[Scota4570]

You need to shoot it and see.  It may shoot well with an 80 grain charge.  This is enough for hunting.

 Just because 1:66 or 48 or whatever is the standard, it does not mean something else will not work well too.  I have made several 45 cal MLs with 45-70 intended barrel blanks.  They have all shot patched balls well.   The rifling is too fast and too shallow for a patched ball, but somehow it works fine.  You will probably need a fairly tight patch and ball combo. 

[Chocktaw Brave]

I measured the lands and grooves today, they are .490 and .510 respectively. I’ll try both patched ball and conical as soon as I can get to the range. I’m going to start out at 60 grains for the conical. Does that sound about right?

[alacran]

Don't know if conical bullets are cynical but I know they are way heavier than round balls. I was shooting 100 grains in a TC LRH barrel which if I remember correctly has a 1 in 28 twist rate. I was using 295 grain black belt bullets. They are called Powerbelt Bullets now. I was getting 6-inch groups off sticks at 100 yards. Not great but adequate for hunting. All the recoil that I wanted with it so I did not experiment with heavier charges.

[Daryl]

I measured the lands and grooves today, they are .490 and .510 respectively. I’ll try both patched ball and conical as soon as I can get to the range. I’m going to start out at 60 grains for the conical. Does that sound about right?

No, 60gr. does not sound right, unless you are attempting to duplicate low powered small case BP ctg. rifle.
The Lee R.E.A.L. bullet mould should be casting around 320gr. in pure lead. The grooves should be filled with a black powder bullet lubricant - SPG, Lee Black Powder Gold, or a mixture
of Beeswax and Vaseline. I did not get good accuracy with Paraffin/BW mixes.
The 3 noted lubricants all work about identically. My mix of 60% pure, 2nd pour beeswax (too much honey in first pour) 40% Vaseline is a good lubricant, if you have access to good BW.
For a powder charge, I would suggest you start with 70gr. 2F & run upwards of 90gr. for a maximum load, or where ever the accuracy meets your needs.
Properly lubricated, you should be able to fire up to 10 shots without any wiping.
Note, your lock's nipples might not last long.
The barrel is likely a Green Mountain barrel.

[Dphariss]

You could sell it to someone and get something more useful. Or rebarrel it.
Comicals in MLs are greatly overrated. But people seem to insist in reinventing the wheel even when it has corners. But few moderns seem to bother with old books.
Shooting conicals (or even round balls) with a drum and nipple setup is not something I care to do.

[Daryl]

You could sell it to someone and get something more useful. Or rebarrel it.
Comicals in MLs are greatly overrated. But people seem to insist in reinventing the wheel even when it has corners. But few moderns seem to bother with old books.
Shooting conicals (or even round balls) with a drum and nipple setup is not something I care to do.

Yikes- yes. I failed to notice the drum. Not good for conicals due to the increased pressure.
According to Lyman's book of the early 70's, BP rifles develop in the 15,000psi range. They called it LUP, which #'s are higher than PSI.
Years back, the Accurate Arms Loading Manual had data for BP ctgs. in Pounds per square inch.
Even the lowly .45/70 developed WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY over 15,000lup- in the realm of 22,000psi & the longer buffalo rounds developed upwards of 28,000psi.
imho, those pressures are way to high for a drum and nipple arrangement. So- my premise of starting at 70gr. (ie: .45/70 area) is too high. Perhaps 40 to maybe 60gr. is about it.

[Chocktaw Brave]

I don’t understand, don’t ALL percussion rifles use a drum? And if not what?

[smylee grouch]

A stronger set up for percussion guns would be a patent breech set up with the nipple seat incorporated in the breech plug which has more and better threads as opposed to a drum with fewer threads screwed into the side of the barrel.

[Chocktaw Brave]

So your talking about something like this?
I really prefer a flintlock to percussion, So during the 19th century many flintlocks were converted to percussion.
Has anyone ever done the reverse and converted percussion to flint? And would it be possible on this one?

[Daryl]

Yes.

[Dphariss]

I don’t understand, don’t ALL percussion rifles use a drum? And if not what?

Just the cheap ones then and now.
The US military never used a drum on issue percussion arms.
There are several problems with modern drums. First they are invariably made of a cold rolled embrittled steel that if not well supported can actually break off from repeated blows of the hammer.
The flash channels are long and prone to fouling buildup and misfires. I have only made one drum and nipple gun in the last 40+ years and I was very careful how it was supported.
The NIPPLE is the common trait of all percussion guns that do not use a CF primer ignition. But on the better guns its mounted to what is referred to as a “patent” breech.
W. Greener in his “The Gun” from 1835 had some derogatory comments on such things.

[Dphariss]

Conversion of a large bench gun from percussion to flint. Not all in order and I don’t have them all on the ipad. Used a “Twigg” since it had the right hammer throw etc to put the pan and sear in the right place. Rifle was done in the 60s I think with a large shop made lock.

[Chocktaw Brave]

That’s exactly what I’m talking about! Did you fill in the existing barrel/hole with an insert? Because it looks a lot bigger than a standard flash hole liner would be.
I was thinking about using one of these for the replacement lock assembly. It looks like it could be shaped to fit the exsisting lock mortise.

[Leatherbark]

Doesn't that Austin & Halleck have a strong CVA type drum and communication hole?  Run the ramrod down the bore and note where it protrudes and lay it along the side of the barrel to see if it has a chambered breech. Or look down the barrel and look to see if it has the small powder hole that directs powder back to the drum and nipple area.  I can't believe Austin & Halleck would make just a drum screwed into the side of a barrel and rifle it for conical bullets.

Bob

[Chocktaw Brave]

Here’s a picture with the ramrod to depth,  against the outside of the barrel.
Also a close-up of the drum.

[Chocktaw Brave]

Had a chance to shoot it this morning, I only had round balls with me, and I forgot my powder measure
So using my powder flask that I had set up for 44 pistol, I just doubled the charge( turned out to be about 45 grains) .490 round ball, .015 lubed patch 
It shot real nice, but it is hard to get used to the Buckhorn style rear sight.
I ordered some Great Plains bullets, and some PA conicals. Will try them out next and hopefully won’t forget the powder measure.( I better not cause I ordered an extra one, and I’m going to tie it to my shooting box!)
Target was 50 yards, and came out sideways again. Oh, and twelve shots with no wiping between. Easy to load all twelve.