soldering a hooked breech

[borderdogs]

Hi Guys,
I have a question on soldering a hooked breech together. I usually use a glue or epoxy to connect the tang and breech together before I inlet the assembly together once they fit together correctly. I have tried to soft solder them together to experiment with this method but I haven't had great success. My guess is I don't have the heat right on the parts or maybe it has something to do with flux. The solder I am using has flux in it. The equipment I have is for electrical component soldering so it is small and didn't work well at least for me. I have done it a few times the last time I tried to solder them together I used a propane torch and a thick piece of solder with both the hook and tang face fluxed with a flux paste. It's stuck together but it came apart when I tried to straighten out the tang using the three rod method in my vise. I heated it up again and with a little more flux and solder it is stuck together again but I haven't tried to do anything with it yet. So I don't think I am doing this correctly.

So my question is what is the procedure to do this right the way I did it so far seems clumsy and the results are poor.
Thanks,
Rob

[tallbear]

I just use 50/50 plumbers solder.Clean parts ...flux with acid flux....Heat until solder flows....don't over heat.

Mitch

[Scota4570]

I always tin both sides of the joint first.  Use paste flux, steel wool, and a bit of solder.  Rub in on the surface while holding the marble sized piece of steel wool with pliers.  It will take on a uniform silver color as the solder coats it.  Then assemble the parts.  Heat the parts and flow solder into the joint. The heat required for soft solder does not cause heat colors.  If that happens you are to hot and causing yourself problems. 

OR....use medium super glue and accelerator on hooked breeches.  It works fine and clean up easier when you need to blue or brown later.  Juist heat it a bit with a propane torch and the glue crumbles. 

[Birddog6]

I am one that has a tendency to make things too strong & etc.  I initially had trouble soldering.
My friend that is a tinsmith showed me. I was getting Everything too hot.  It's not like a silver
solder braze where you need allot of heat. And unless you have one Big electric soldering iron,your
electric iron or gun may not do it.  Now I have a electric iron that will, as we solder big armatures
coils to the commutators with it.  Friend of mine rewound a armature for a generator for AL Power
last year & the commutator was 7' in diameter. My friend hand soldered all the bars on it, and it
took him a week 

  I used to use a propane torch, now I use MAPP gas torch.  Soon as you see the solder melt, take
the heat off.  Sneak the heat to it, if you need more  Don't heat the bejesus out of it like I was. Too
much heat burns the flux & makes it impossible bond anything..

[borderdogs]

Thanks for the replies. I think the issues I was having were either too much heat or not enough or possibly too much flux. I have used super glue and J B and those work ok but I wanted to try using solder and see if it was better. I haven't had the chance to try it again but when I do I will post my results.
Thanks,
Rob

[45-110]

Solder works fine, its the clean up that is a pain. Degrease your parts and epoxy will hold for bending and some rough work. You have to have a nice close fit to begin with though. Clean up is then easy.

[Steeltrap]

  I used to use a propane torch, now I use MAPP gas torch.  Soon as you see the solder melt, take
the heat off.  Sneak the heat to it, if you need more  Don't heat the bejesus out of it like I was. Too
much heat burns the flux & makes it impossible bond anything..

The guys here (including Keith) had taught me a lot about silver soldering. My first attempt at finding "success" (Success defined as...will the part hold together) took me about 8 hours of time.

I finally got the message that I was applying way to much heat and thus, burned the flux. Once you burn the flux it's all over. Clean up the piece and apply enough heat to get the flux to "run"....then apply the solder in the same fashion.

It didn't come out the "prettiest" but it holds well and add's "character" to the piece....well...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!

[P.W.Berkuta]

First of all solder does not fill in deep irregular surfaces that has much strength. It is best to "tin" both surfaces after you dress off any irregular surface castings to get the parts as flat and in contact as possible - clean well, flux, tin, then clamp together, apply heat until solder will flow - apply solder - let it flow then remove heat.

[Dphariss]

Hi Guys,
I have a question on soldering a hooked breech together. I usually use a glue or epoxy to connect the tang and breech together before I inlet the assembly together once they fit together correctly. I have tried to soft solder them together to experiment with this method but I haven't had great success. My guess is I don't have the heat right on the parts or maybe it has something to do with flux. The solder I am using has flux in it. The equipment I have is for electrical component soldering so it is small and didn't work well at least for me. I have done it a few times the last time I tried to solder them together I used a propane torch and a thick piece of solder with both the hook and tang face fluxed with a flux paste. It's stuck together but it came apart when I tried to straighten out the tang using the three rod method in my vise. I heated it up again and with a little more flux and solder it is stuck together again but I haven't tried to do anything with it yet. So I don't think I am doing this correctly.

So my question is what is the procedure to do this right the way I did it so far seems clumsy and the results are poor.
Thanks,
Rob

Make sure the part fit together properly.  You should be able to hang a weight in the tang without it causing any gaps.
I use Acra-Glas gel. Clean the mating surfaces with acetone. CLEAN.
Carefully measure an mix the epoxy Make sure you cover all contact surfaces but don’t over do. You can scrape off excess with a piece of woodI clamp the barrel in padded vice and put the tang on the breech making sure its well seated. Then leave it overnight. You can attach a small weight to the end of the tang to make sure the parts are together firmly. But if the fit is sloppy this may not work. Thus the pre-gule test.

[borderdogs]

I have used epoxy before and it works. My parts fit well I have done a few of these over the years and take very little material off the faces. What I have found is super glue works ok but not great if you need to straighten out the tang. The J & B works better than super glue and that is what I used this time but it came apart apart when I tried to bend the tang. I haven't tried Acra-Glass though. I will take some pictures and post them when I get to it later this week.
Thanks,
Rob

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I solder my hooked breech and tangs together using 2% silver solder that is made for electrical soldering.  And paste flux.  I use scrapers to clean the mating surfaces, tin as described above with fluxed steel wool, then flow the solder into the joined parts.  I have never had the joint fail but I don't use the barrel as a lever if I need to change the direction of the tang.  To clean up after fitting, heat to melt and separate the parts.  Then scrapers to remove the solder...not a hard job but requires some persistence and patience.  Joining the tang to the plug with solder ensures that you will be inletting the tang in it's correct position relative to the barrel and breech plug.

[borderdogs]

I am hoping to try soldering tomorrow. Taylor, sort of following  your scraper shapes I have made a similar ones using old chisels and a graver and they work ok, I spend a lot of time getting the faces to meet very well and I find this the hardest thing to get done well in the whole build. And when I start on fitting a tang/breech I don't count the time or rush the job
Rob

[Not English]

Scout and the other guys definitely have the right idea. I've never tried a small ball of steel wool, I'm going to have to give it a try. I've always used one of those really small wood handled brass wire brushes for tinning. The wood doesn't melt and the brass bristles will hold the solder once you've used it. This is also how I do barrels and ribs and underlugs. Do not throw the brush when done. It's totally reusable inspite of the charring on the handle.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I made scrapers for this job out of worn out files.  They take a wonderful edge and last a long time before sharpening is required.

[borderdogs]

I had old chisels so that was what I used I think files would work better but I didn't have a good range of sizes that I could make some from. I was wondering about using s brass brush or steel wool, I use steel wool to clean a part but how does those work soldering.....maybe a stupid question. I have some plumbers lead that I will use and some flux. The last time I tried soldering I used an acid brush to flux both faces. I assume spread the solder out to tin with the steel wool or brush?
Rob

[borderdogs]

Hi Guys,
So I tried soldering the tang and breech together using a torch flux paste and solder with some silver in it and it didn't work. The fit of the breech and tang is very good with no movement at all. I tried to tin the surfaces so I fluxed the surfaces and tried to apply solder to them. I had a brass brush but it doesn't survive direct flame from the torch. The last time I did this I had the tang and breech fluxed and together and could get the solder to run and the pieces to stick but the joint wasnt very strong. I am sure the problem is the application of the heat. I will try again tomorrow.
Rob

[RAT]

Sounds like you were applying the heat/flame directly to the solder. You should have applied the heat to the back side of the part. As the part reaches the melting temperature of the solder the solder will flow onto the opposite side of the part.

[RAT]

Oh... and full disclosure... I've only tried one hooked breech. I used epoxy and it came apart when I was inletting it. So I've been following this thread for tips myself.

[borderdogs]

Thanks Rat (Bob),
This is the first time I tried solder I have done five hooked breeches so far and I have used both epoxy and super glue and they work to a degree but I have had them come apart too. True confession here too, ever since Taylor mentioned soldering I have thought of trying the method. It took a few tries but I can get a great fit between the tang and the hooked breech. Taylor has not only been an inspiration with the results of his rifles but he has helped me with some of the issues I have had building Hawken rifles, especially the hooked breech and tang fit. And if I can get that right I should be able to get soldering right too.

I took some pictures but to put it bluntly........they sucked so I didn't post them.
Rob