Original Hawken Pistol?

[redheart]

Does an original fullstock Hawken pistol exist? 

[mr. no gold]

Good question! I have seen perhaps four originals and all were half stocked. About 45 years ago an original cased pair of Hawken pistols turned up in a local antique shop here in
San Diego. They went into a local collection but were later sold back east many years ago. Not sure where they are today, but were definitely half stocked.
Dick

[redheart]

Thanks Dick,
I've never seen even a photo of an original, I guess for now it'll have to remain in the fantasy realm. 
They look cool and I was thinking of building one, but if I show up at Rendezvous with a fantasy piece, they'll skin me alive!

[Bob Roller]

The late Tom Dawson made a few Hawken type pistols and I think they were copied from originals.I have a vague memory of making locks for him to use on a pistol.As far as a fantasy gun is concerned,ALL repros are just THAT and even Dawson said they are all representative types no matter who makes them.He copied originals down to the mistakes and accidents but never tried to pass one off as anything but a COPY,a very close one but still,a COPY.Anyone now that says they're building a Hawken better have that name on their mail box or drivers license.Try to get as close as possible to the original idea but it still won't be a Hawken no matter what hardware is used.
I used plates and hammers cast from original Hawken rifles but the mechanisms were more sophisticated than anything seen in St.Louis in the 18 and when evers and my name was inside the plate in a semi circle with the last 2 numbers of the year it was made.
Hope nobody gets their shirt in a knot about this note,it's only one man;s opinion .
Bob Roller

[redheart]

I'm happy to get your take on it any time Bob! 
I would have loved to get my hands on an original Dawson rifle and pistol and an original Roller Hawken pistol lock. 

[redheart]

Here's a nice drawing of an "original" if anyone's interested.

[RAT]

There are quite a few photos of half stock pistols made by the Hawken brothers. This includes those stamped "J & S Hawken"... "S Hawken"... and even one by Jacob Hawken. All are percussion and in the style of English half stock dueling pistols that were very popular in America after 1800.

To me... and this is just my opinion... it seems there were 2 GENERAL styles of guns being made in Maryland in the 1st quarter of the 19th century... those who were following the American/Pennsylvania style... and those following English styles.

Now... a whole bunch of people are going to get there undergarments in a bind over that statement. Yes... guns made in Maryland were a whole different school... or schools (plural)... I'm not disputing that. What I'm talking about are the clearly unique American styles that were being made in America... what many call "Kentucky" rifles... evolved from the German gunmaking tradition... vs the clearly different English styles that developed at the very end of the 18th century.

Hawken full stock rifles seem closer to the American "Kentucky" style, while their half stock rifles are more closely related to the English style. So it would appear they could go back and forth with regards to long guns. With regards to pistols, they seem to have preferred the English style... as did Philip Creamer... another Maryland... and later Illinois and Missouri gunsmith. Some existing half stock Hawken pistols are actually believed to be English made and imported by the Hawken brothers.

From what I've read, true American "Kentucky" style pistols are quite rare and were only made in a few areas. Given the popularity of the English half stock style of dueling pistol at the time, I find it very doubtful, but not impossible that the Hawken brothers made full stock pistols during the time they were working in St Louis.

Just one guy's opinion. 

[Panzerschwein]

What would these original Hawken pistols be used for during the period? As dueling weapons or personal defense based?

[rich pierce]

What would these original Hawken pistols be used for during the period? As dueling weapons or personal defense based?

)just my thoughts; no actual data)
Or possibly, “that’s so cool I’ve got to have it!” Pistols were fairly common and dueling rather rare. Not many men would think, “I need a dueling pistol” and if they did, it might be to show your gentlemen friends while sipping brandy.

[redheart]

What would these original Hawken pistols be used for during the period? As dueling weapons or personal defense based?

)just my thoughts; no actual data)
Or possibly, “that’s so cool I’ve got to have it!” Pistols were fairly common and dueling rather rare. Not many men would think, “I need a dueling pistol” and if they did, it might be to show your gentlemen friends while sipping brandy.

LOVE IT!

[RAT]

What would these original Hawken pistols be used for during the period? As dueling weapons or personal defense based?

Yes.
In other words... both. But mostly the latter.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about HAWKEN dueling pistols... I'm talking about English style half stock dueling pistols in general. A good example is the pair of pistols made by Kentucky gunmakers James and Samuel Gilston (who were brothers). Shelby Gallien wrote about them in his books "Kentucky Gunmakers"... he also wrote an article for Muzzle Blasts. They were made in 1821 for John Waring, who was an attorney in Kentucky. Shelby writes...

"Waring fought many duels during his short life and killed eight men with pistols or bowie knives."

James Bowie was another... not to mention the famous duel between Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr%E2%80%93Hamilton_duel

Although the pistols used by Hamilton/Burr weren't half stocks.

[Hungry Horse]

Hamilton’s pistols were half stocks if consider the brass forends a nosecap.

 Hungry Horse

[Bob Roller]

What would these original Hawken pistols be used for during the period? As dueling weapons or personal defense based?

)just my thoughts; no actual data)
Or possibly, “that’s so cool I’ve got to have it!” Pistols were fairly common and dueling rather rare. Not many men would think, “I need a dueling pistol” and if they did, it might be to show your gentlemen friends while sipping brandy.

Personal defense would be my guess.Take the lock off and see if it's above "average"quality and it probably IS English if it has a bridle with 2 screws at the top and MAYBE a "fly".How about single set triggers.were they seen on these pistols.I remember Tom Dawson saying the only use he could think of would be to shoot your self with one while being eaten alive by a bear
Bob Roller

[Clark Badgett]

Small smoothbore pistols were quite prolific. Rifled pistols not as common as the run of the mill English style smoothbore.

[Hungry Horse]

 Pistols in the Hawken era were often a status symbol, as were dueling pistols. Many cased sets of duelers were entirely too showy for actual use and were often used mostly for presentations. I do remember seeing a picture, and an accompanying article in one of the muzzleloading publications about a Hawken pistol that was found in an old smoke house hanging above the door, this one no doubt saw much use.

Hungry Horse

[Jeff Murray]

Many dueling pistols were made in cased sets that could accommodate the agreed upon rules for the duel.  Andrew Jackson fought a duel with a rival in which his cased set was used by both men.  Jackson's "second" loaded the pistols and the rival's "second" got first choice of the pistols for the duel.  Both men were hit.  The rival died and Jackson suffered from his would until his death.