Full stocked Hawken Flinter

[Dphariss]

Not as hard to find as I thought. The rifle probably was made in the 1850s. It has the standard (of the time) oval Hawken key escutcheons. And a schnable (sic) forend cap. Like a FS percussion rifle pictured in “Firearms of The American West 1803-1865”. There is a full length view of the Smithsonian rifle in this volume as well.
I don’t know who actually made the lock but its pretty typical waterproof pan FL. Decent quality by the looks of the internals. Most likely from Birmingham. The fence is bent forward for hammer clearance. Front of the trigger bar is a pineapple motif .

[Dphariss]

The pencil drawing and the ridiculous “double pinned mainspring”  “chiseled off  bolster” comments etc are from Goodwin’s letter.

[sbowman]

Three Hawken marked rifles with flint plates, all marked J&S

smithonian hawken

index by steve  bowman,

Private collection, rifle marked J&S Hawken on barrel. barrel pinned

HAWKEN-PLAINS-RIFLE-FULL-STOCK-JAKE-AND-SAM-HAWKEN_100859825_93395_D0E0BCBBA444430F by steve  bowman, on

Fordney Hawken

J & s 58 by steve  bowman, on

[Bob Roller]

And the mystery IS,were the locks converted before the rifles were even started OR were they originally flintlock rifles from day one.
WHEN did percussion caps become widely available and reliable?I know they had them in 1836 because of the multishot revolvers showing
up.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

WIDE distribution of trustworthy caps is likely the "kicker". Percussion caps are attributed to have been developed in 1820, I have read in several writings.
Would THEY have been widely available across the States by 1835? maybe? Rock-locks sure were.

[sbowman]

"Irrespective as to when the percussion cap was originally invented in Europe, they were first seen on the east coast in 1825/26, and later first advertised for sale in St. Louis in 1831." (quote from Muzzleblasts article on the Ashley Hawken )

several autobiography's I've read by trappers/mountainmen of the late 20's and throughout the 30's mention "cap" when referring to their rifles.

Colt patented his Patterson in 1836 and began manufacture.

William T. Hamilton (Widcat Bill) was part of a trapping trading expedition led by "Old Bill Williams" which left St. Louis in spring of 1842. each trapper was equipped with a pair of Pattersons and a rifle or double shotgun. From "My Sixty Years on the Plains" by Hamilton

Steve

[Jeff Murray]

Seeing the article from the Buckskin Report brings back forgotton memories.  I do remember reading that article.  Fun stuff.

[Dphariss]

The “detonating system”, the system invented in England did not use percussion caps as we know them. There were various inventions to use the detonating compounds. Scent bottle locks, tube locks and others.
















The percussion CAP was an American invention (well Shaw emigrated to the US and filed for a patent on the cap in 1822)  dating to the mid-late 1820s. Originally it was a reloadable iron cap and then the thin copper/brass cap was evolved and mass production kicked in. About 1825 or so I expect. So the percussion system we know today was not in widespread use for most of the “mountain man” era. So I suspect that the Hawken shop was making flintlocks on regular basis into at least the early 1830s.

In England the percussion system swept the flintlocks from shotguns very rapidly. It gave a far more consistent ignition for shooting flying birds. But it lagged somewhat in rifles. This from George in “English Guns and Rifles”. I think that the variations in the early systems and caps may have effected the accuracy of rifles.
While I don’t know when The American Fur Co. changed this policy this is an excerpt from “Firearms of the American West - 1803-1865” pg 42.


Not everyone was enthralled with the caplock. And in actual use a flintlock is about as reliable as a percussion especially if the percussion flash channels is not carefully cleaned and dried.
Today the cost is a factor $.9 to $1 a shot is prohibitive. I suspect this may have been a factor back in the day as well. I have bought some Remington caps at 8.99 a box because I have some projects in the works that will use them. But then handloads for my brass suppository match rifle are a lot worse…. And based of what I hear producing percussion caps is pretty far down the line in priority.

[Notchy Bob]

In considering the direction of the wedge keys, I think it is usual to put the heads on the side opposite of the lock.  When you hold the forestock with your non-dominant hand, the rounded heads are more comfortable against your palm than the other end of the wedges.

It is my understanding that the percussion fullstocks were offered as a sort of lower cost "package deal" by the Hawken shop, as opposed to the halfstocks.  The fullstocks typically had solid (not hooked) breeches, but they had the long tang we associate with Hawken rifles.  This made dismounting the rifle for cleaning more troublesome, so they were probably cleaned most of the time with the barrel left in the stock.  Since the wedges were thus rarely removed, the escutcheon plates were not really needed to protect the wood.

Regarding the reliability of the percussion system, I ran across this interesting quote in The Plains of the Great West, by Lt. Col. Richard Irving Dodge, published in 1877:



Best regards,

Notchy Bob

[Bob Roller]

That is quite a selection of Don King's rifles.I met him in 1960 at Bill Large's but don't recall ever making a  lock for him or even discussing about making them.When did Don pass away?
Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

That is quite a selection of Don King's rifles.I met him in 1960 at Bill Large's but don't recall ever making a  lock for him or even discussing about making them.When did Don pass away?
Bob Roller

National Cemetary Laural, MT. The person that orders the headstones wanted to know what if anything extra needed to be added besides name and PH so  the only relation present had no idea so had them put on “Frozen Chosin”. Don deserved it. The interesting part is that at the Museum at the Marine Recruit Depot at San Diego has am picture of Don in a line of Marines on some snowy road in North Korea. My son found while he was there as a “boot”. Don had pointed it out to us in a book during a visit.




He was in a USMC reserve unit when Korea broke out and went to Korea even before boot camp.
Wounded after the Chinese came into the war somewhere South of the Chosin Res. Carried bullet fragments next to his spine. His hands were somewhat frost bitten as well. He was found still alive while the Marines were pickup up the dead and loading them on trucks.  Never fully recovered from Korea. In mind or body.
Don was trained as a photo engraver. And did some wonderful engraving and his inletting was as good as it gets.
He used both Douglas and Bill Large barrels and one Sharon I know off. Used a lot of Silers on Kentuckies. Built Vincent Ohio Rifles for Golden Age Arms for a time. They sent him the parts and he built the guns. Its mentioned in one of the old MB mags I have in a GAA ad. I have most of his records to 1971 (but not the GAA guns) or so then he stopped recording them lost interest I guess.
He stopped almost all gun work, moved to Billings and cured his alcoholism. Made a couple of rifles in Billings but he told me that the residuals from the frost bite was effecting his dexterity. And he had a photographic memory… He passed in his sleep. His brother-in-law came over for a trip to the rifle range and found him.




I think this is the last rifle he made.



I miss him.

[Dphariss]

"Irrespective as to when the percussion cap was originally invented in Europe, they were first seen on the east coast in 1825/26, and later first advertised for sale in St. Louis in 1831." (quote from Muzzleblasts article on the Ashley Hawken )

several autobiography's I've read by trappers/mountainmen of the late 20's and throughout the 30's mention "cap" when referring to their rifles.

Colt patented his Patterson in 1836 and began manufacture.

William T. Hamilton (Widcat Bill) was part of a trapping trading expedition led by "Old Bill Williams" which left St. Louis in spring of 1842. each trapper was equipped with a pair of Pattersons and a rifle or double shotgun. From "My Sixty Years on the Plains" by Hamilton

Steve

1842 or even 1836, is a long ways from the late 1820s, 10-17 +- years, in reference to the percussion cap. If they had “cap” guns in the late 1820s they were taking their chances with what was a brand new technology that many did not trust.  Or misremembered the dates.  This is a really hard thing to pin down. There is an inventory of goods going the a Rendezvous in the 1830s with several Hawken rifles listed but no percussion caps.  Which I thought was strange.
I also wonder about every trapper having a pair of Pattersons. Possible. I was not there. But this would have been a sizable investment, the list price was $50 each. And then there was the production rate total 2350 (or 2800?) made. And in 1842 the production had ceased since the company folded.
Not to mention that the beaver market was virtually dead by 1842.

[Jeff Murray]

I was in the Buffalo Bill Museum yesterday and stopped by to check the Hawken display.  There were two full stock, caplock Hawkens with keys inserted left to right on both.

[Daryl]

The “detonating system”, the system invented in England did not use percussion caps as we know them. There were various inventions to use the detonating compounds. Scent bottle locks, tube locks and others.
















The percussion CAP was an American invention (well Shaw emigrated to the US and filed for a patent on the cap in 1822)  dating to the mid-late 1820s. Originally it was a reloadable iron cap and then the thin copper/brass cap was evolved and mass production kicked in. About 1825 or so I expect. So the percussion system we know today was not in widespread use for most of the “mountain man” era. So I suspect that the Hawken shop was making flintlocks on regular basis into at least the early 1830s.

In England the percussion system swept the flintlocks from shotguns very rapidly. It gave a far more consistent ignition for shooting flying birds. But it lagged somewhat in rifles. This from George in “English Guns and Rifles”. I think that the variations in the early systems and caps may have effected the accuracy of rifles.
While I don’t know when The American Fur Co. changed this policy this is an excerpt from “Firearms of the American West - 1803-1865” pg 42.


Not everyone was enthralled with the caplock. And in actual use a flintlock is about as reliable as a percussion especially if the percussion flash channels is not carefully cleaned and dried.
Today the cost is a factor $.9 to $1 a shot is prohibitive. I suspect this may have been a factor back in the day as well. I have bought some Remington caps at 8.99 a box because I have some projects in the works that will use them. But then handloads for my brass suppository match rifle are a lot worse…. And based of what I hear producing percussion caps is pretty far down the line in priority.

The "pill" and "tube" locks is where the formula of potassium chlorate, charcoal and sulfur came from. Likely used in the early percussion caps as well.