A New Hawken to Me

[Herb]

This is my original post about this rifle.  I said the barrel is "about 38 inches long".

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28091.msg268125#msg268125

Dphar1950 posted on www.muzzleloadingforum.com on Sep 22, 2019 about this rifle.  From my notes:  "Barrel is 1.029 at breech, .978 at rear sight, .944 at forend cap, .905 3" from muzzle, .908 at front sight, .917 at muzzle.  Barely swamped.  Underrib is tapered, 1/4" high at forend cap, about 5/16" at muzzle.  I have a whole page of hand written notes about this rifle, I guess from Dphar, too much to post here.

[redheart]

Has anyone found an original "Hawken" rifle with a twist other than 1-48? I'm directing this mostly to Herb only because no one else seems to know.
I hope I'm not killing another thread.

[Herb]

I ain't as smart as I am handsome.  I've only checked maybe a half dozen or so original Hawkens with sized bore plugs, thus also getting the twist rate.  These include the Bridger, Carson, Liver Eating Johnson and a couple other rifles at Cody and Cheyenne and Lincoln.  All these were about 48 inch twist, averaging my technique.

[redheart]

Thanks Herb! 

[Hungry Horse]

If the Hawken rifles I’ve seen are any indication, a lock signed by them is pretty rare. I’ve seen their guns with locks by known lock makers, and even by their competitors. But not by them. For me a rifle with a Hawken signed lock would make me look at it very closely.

Hungry Horse

[T.C.Albert]

Is it just me or is there muzzle decoration similar to a star of David, only with 8 points shown in the images of the rifle coning? If so, is that a common Hawken feature?  I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned. ( I see now where RAT mentioned it earlier in this thread too.)

TCA

[Herb]

There are seven lands and grooves.  The lands were filed down to the bottom of the grooves, back only 1/4 or 3/8", then the grooves were filed back in.  This is a common muzzle treatment of original rifles, not just Hawkens.  All the Hawken muzzles I have seen (mostly in Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III") have some kind of muzzle treatment.  None have crowned muzzles like most modern rifles.

[Daryl]

Same with the Jaeger rifle muzzles I have seen, Herb- filed out. I've also observed filing on some other rifles, English SxS's, but an old
Lancaster 4 barrel had smoothed crowns like I use. This may be due to being smooth, or having Lancaster "invisible" rifling.
 

[redheart]

Hey Guys,
Don't you think they used a coning tool on Hawken rifles rather than a file to remove the rifling at the muzzle, then filed the 7 grooves back in, perhaps to keep more lube on the patch where it entered the muzzle. Just wonderin. 

[Daryl]

As Herb noted, the lands were filed to the same depth grooves, then the grooves deepened with a file to look like the muzzle did originally.  That was normal on Jaegers as well. Some of those are filed even further, both lands and grooves, so the muzzle is larger in both dimensions, like the mouth of a trumpet, iirc the Jaeger book's pictures Taylor has.
If a coning took was used, the rifling lands would disappear just inside the muzzle. It doesn't which shows a file was used. It does not take long to file out the lands and grooves if you wanted a muzzle to be PC on either a Hawken or as it seems an English 4 barreled gun.
If I might make a suggestion, highlighting your posts does not do anything for them. We can all read normal text.

[redheart]

  I realize that it's possible to do this with a file, but my point was that in the interest of not running the risk of screwing up the accuracy by possibly hand filing the inside of the muzzle unevenly, the same thing could be and probably was done with more precision by using a coning tool or something akin to it.

[T.C.Albert]

Sorry. I’m talking about the 8 pointed star wiggle worked muzzle decoration. Not the funneled bore.
Is decoration like that normal for Hawken? I may just be seeing things but it looks decorated to me. I’ve tried to illustrate what I’m looking at below.






Thanks
TCA

[Daryl]

I'm seeing it, too. TCA.

[Herb]

I've never seen that before.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think that would be hard on a sharp patch cutting knife.

[RAT]

T C... The lines you drew are correct. I don't think they were going for any kind of symbolism. It's just a decoration wiggle engraved from barrel corner to barrel corner. It's easier to see in person. I might have a better picture. I'll need to check my files later when I get on my other computer (doing this from my laptop). I think I remember one other rifle with this same decoration, but I can't remember if it was also a Hawken. I'll have to check my files.

[RAT]

I'm not sure if this is a better photo, but it's what I've got...



I still think I saw this type of muzzle decoration on another rifle, but couldn't find it in my Hawken files. It must have been on a rifle by a different maker.

[dadybear1]

NICE OLD RIFLE---THANKS FOR SHOWING