Author Topic: Another horn I am working on  (Read 1703 times)

Offline JH Ehlers

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Another horn I am working on
« on: April 04, 2023, 08:56:02 PM »
Has anyone made something like this? I am thinking how to attach the 4 rings that are seen on some examples. It would be pretty easy to silver solder them on but how did they do it 300 years ago and not have them fall off over time. Nails?


Offline DougS

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2023, 10:38:41 PM »
Wow, very nice.

I'm not sure the best way to attach the rings as I am not a horn worker.

Hopefully, some of the horn workers on the site can help you.

Awesome work,

Thanks for sharing,

Doug

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2023, 09:39:25 AM »
Usually there were tabs cast onto the brass top and bottom pieces that extended into the inside of the horn. Holes were drilled through the horn and into the tabs. The holes in the tabs were tapped to take the 4 iron or brass threaded eye bolts (2 on the top and 2 on the bottom) that screwed in and held everything together. The horn was then typically suspended by a cord run through the eyes.

Here is a link to an old discussion we had on them. It may be of some use.
TCA   

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=57901.0

Beautiful work on your flask by the way.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 10:29:25 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline JH Ehlers

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2023, 06:28:06 PM »
Thank you TCA, that answers my question. I have not found much information about this construction method online, also just a hand full of pictures of such horn flasks. This one will be without the internal mechanism but I will have to make one in the future.




Offline JH Ehlers

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2023, 04:15:38 AM »
Got it almost done. Thanks again TC Albert. The tab method worked very well.






Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2023, 08:31:14 AM »
Good deal, glad the tabs worked. Were you able to just solder them in place? I'm also curious how you made the caps too? Are they cast? Pressed from sheet? Or soldered up from pieces? How ever it was done the resulting flask looks very nice. The horn work looks great and the metal work is beautiful right down to the file work details on the lanyard eyes. Will you add some engraving? Thanks much for sharing the images with us.
Tim A.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2023, 08:44:50 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline JH Ehlers

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2023, 04:36:53 PM »
Hello TC. The brass parts were all soldered together with 56% silver solder. I kind of did it like I was making some jewelery getting all mating surfaces very tight fitting. The eyelets were made from mild steel 3/16 flat stock. All the brass was from a 3" shell from a naval gun that I have had since 1990.
It started off with pine plugs at both ends and I kept them in the design. I soft soldered some 1/8 mild steel to the 1/16 tabs to serve as nuts. I suspect the original makers did not use wooden plugs as it makes everything more difficult to assemble, I might be wrong. What are your thoughts on that?
Next one I will do with the internal cut off mechanism. I was also wondering if the spouts were used as a powder measure as they were fairly large.








Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2023, 04:50:46 PM »
 Any way you look at it that's a Lot of work. Well done.

   Tim C.

Offline JH Ehlers

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2023, 05:29:04 PM »
You can say that again Tim, not something I will be mass producing to sell. If I look at pictures of original 17th and 18th century stuff it also looks like a lot of work. And horns don't come in standard sizes and shapes, each one is custom made.
I have to stay focused on the end product or else I am tempted to move on to something else, now back to my unfinished gun project.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2023, 09:18:29 AM »
Thanks for the images of your construction process. Very nice work.
 
I am far from an expert, but I had always thought that the Spanish and French brass pulverin parts were bulk cast sets and that they were run in batches. This would allow for some small approximation of mass production and part interchangeability. And the castings would be purposely designed to fit an average sized horn. Much like the brass pulverine castings you would get from TRS today, sets are all the same size one to another and after fitting and finishing the castings, an average horn is all that's needed to complete one. Finishing the castings is the real work, fitting a piece horn between the end caps is pretty easy after that.

The idea then is the horn is cut to fit the castings not the other way around, at least for the basic military contracted type stuff I would think. High end pieces, or even country made home spun versions would likely require custom made fittings. I.E., if you only have one horn, you will make the brass ends to fit it, but if you have a hundred matching top and bottom cast sets you will fit the horns to them. I had always thought this was an evolution in production methods to speed manufacturing in order to better outfit bigger armies with standardized stuff. This would be a step up from the older wooden trapezoidal style flasks fitted with forged iron frames and cut off levers. 

Yes, with a cut off valve the spout could be incorporated as a measure. This could be a very desirable feature especially if they were all cast to a uniform size to throw the specific charge needed for a standard military load etc. For non military use it seems the Queen Anne type flask evolved, maybe because it could be shop made from horn and needed no foundry made parts.     

Finally, I dont think the pine wooden ends were actually needed and doubt they were  bulk manufactured that way back in the day. Again, I'm really no expert and these are just all my thoughts.
TC           
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 07:40:43 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2023, 04:06:46 PM »
Very lovely!!!

Offline JH Ehlers

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2023, 08:57:20 PM »
Thanks Bob. TC, I think you are right about everything you have said there and if I may I will be back with more questions for you in the future. I really don't know anything about this subject I am just guessing, we are lucky to have this forum where questions can be answered and opinions can be heard. I see something that I like, I think how it was made and how I will make it, ask questions... and then it ends up a lot of work. I am satisfied with the end result and will do some engraving on it at a later time.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2023, 04:34:36 PM »
JH, I sent you a pm

Tim A


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Offline Jeff Murray

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Re: Another horn I am working on
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2023, 11:42:09 PM »
It is always interesting to see the process used on items that are not that common.  Thanks for posting.