High end English? 4 screw bridle percussion lock

[Mattox Forge]

I saw this on eBay and watched it. The seller dropped the price to $35, and I couldn't refuse. Is this what one would refer to as a four screw bridle lock? It appears to be very well made. I assume it would be English from the Birmingham area in the 1860s or 70s.  I haven't ever come across one with this bridle configuration. I am sure Bob Roller has probably made some like this and knows about them. I would love to hear more about this type of lock.







An English made three screw bridle lock from a rifle for comparison.







The Holmes lock should be able to be cleaned up and used on a nice rifle of some sort.

Mike

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes, a nice four pin lock in need of a good clean and polish M-F.
This one is a bit newer than the second one you show, and that is why the difference in the bridle.

This may be one of the earliest four pin locks, made by Thomas Boss in 1837.
It is rather unique in the styling, and as far as I know, only made by Boss.





Back action four pin, on a John Blissett double, Lock by  Joeseph Brazier. about 1860-2




It may be that when cleaned you might find a makers name on the inside, as it Is a good lock!
Aall the best,
R.

[Bob Roller]

These locks even when in a neglected condition are an interesting thing and in 1987 I made my first attempt to copy a "4 pin" Stanton that Lynton McKenzie loaned to me. I was able to copy it to the degree that the parts would interchange with the exception of the screws which were 4x42 and I used 4x48's in my replica.The lock I copied was NOT neglected and Lynton removed it from an Alex Henry match rifle and sent it across the USA.I have made about 40 of the full size versions and maybe 8 of a much smaller pattern but identical to the full size versions.I have a semi finished small version needing the springs laying on the mantle for 3 or 4 years.
   The mechanical logic behind these locks makes them a very rigid mechanism and then connected to a link the quality can be felt when compared to the locks found on guns like our beloved Hawken and others that used utility grade locks.
   The "3 pin" lock shown is not a top of the line type*.The crude link hanging straight is NOT good work and may be a botched repair by an
unskilled person.I used a similar mechanism in schuetzen locks for a German shop.I used the screw spacing for the "4 pin"but elimenated the upper screw and it looked good and no difference in performance.The last Hawken lock I made had this mechanism and it was on a cast plate marked J&S Hawken and it is in a fully finished rifle made by a top Hawken maker.
   Why the Brits went to this much effort to make these superb mechanisms has yet to be disclosed but I think it was a gesture of contempt for low end ideas and every one showed what the makers thought of themselves AND the buyers.I am glad they did and they gave back yard
machinists like me a challenge to copy.As far as I know,there have been only 2 others here in our times that have made these locks if for no
other reason than to see if they could and I was the 3rd one.
*There are a lot of high quality"3 pin"locks seen on rifles and shotguns but this particular one may be a spin off made in India or an apprentice.
   Thank you and Pukka for showing these locks and I hope to see some follow up here if there is any interest.
Bob Roller

PS. I magnified the "3 pin" lock and IMHO the tumbler and mainspring may be replacements.That tumbler and link are not the quality seen on these locks.

[Mattox Forge]

Bob,

Thanks for the insights.

The gun that the tbree pin lock came from has had a lot of hacking done to it, so the link and spring, and possibly the tumbler are probably are replacements. The spring is clearly too short for the lock, and link isn’t allowing the tumbler to rotate fully. Since the hammer is past the what should be the stop, something is clearly wrong with the set up. The standard of engraving on the lock and the rest of the rufle indicates that tbis was once a high grade gun, but if suffered along its journey.

Mike

[Mattox Forge]

I realize this is an image of a gun from later than is usually discussed here, however, I feel this bears on the topic at hand. The side locks shown are from an American Parker shotgun.


I have two questions:
1) Did American gun makers continue to use English gun locks even as late as this gun was made?

2) More importantly, were rebounding locks ever used on percussion cap fired muzzle loading guns. I can see why it might not be a good idea to use that design, but I could also see some positives.

Mike

[Pukka Bundook]

Mike,
I have one set of locks that were fitted to a very early breechloader, that are rebounding.
This gun had a patent breech and looks to be modified from a muzzle loader.
Normally and in the general run of things,  we get early B- loaders with half and full cocking, using exactly the same locks as previously.
Whether there were any rebounding M/loader locks I cant say.
If I can find enough bits of these old locks first mentioned I will post a picture here for you.

Your other question about locks being imported at this later date I can't say, but would imagine the American production was fully able to take care of all locks for the domestic market.

all the best,
R.

[Bob Roller]

I realize this is an image of a gun from later than is usually discussed here, however, I feel this bears on the topic at hand. The side locks shown are from an American Parker shotgun.


I have two questions:
1) Did American gun makers continue to use English gun locks even as late as this gun was made?

2) More importantly, were rebounding locks ever used on percussion cap fired muzzle loading guns. I can see why it might not be a good idea to use that design, but I could also see some positives.

Mike

My own opinion is that the whole gun may have been imported from England.Getting off topic,I had a "like new"Colt* 10 gauge breech loader and it had useful locks but nothing like these.The high end locks seem to be a specialty of the British and that includes Ireland and Scotland
and  the later rebounding locks were done by modifying the link connecting the mainspring to the tumbler to use the power of the
 mainspring to pull the hammer(s) back.I would NOT WANT this on a muzzle loader for any reason.I recently finished a J&S Hawken
lock using the Morgan plate and hammer and made a "full cocked:only" mechanism like the originals had but with better material and precise fitting and it sold immediately when I posted it here.This had been laying around for many years in a "Seegar Box"out of sight
behind on of the 3 machinists tool boxes in my shop.
*The Colt 10 gauge was made in Belgium to a certain level and then finished in Hartford Ct.where the pistol factory was located.A friend
who fell on hard times sold it to me for $35 in 1964 and I kept it and 2 years later he bought it back for $40.
  I was considering making some hybrid locks using American plates and hammers but with the Stanton "3 pin" mechanisms but my milling machine is worn out and no plans to replace it. The labor intensive locks and lower back stenosis are not compatible and onlya trigger on a once in a while basis will be IT.
Bob Roller