To restore or leave alone?

[snapper]

This thread is not intended to be controversial, so please keep that in mind when you make a post.

So some think it is terrible to restore a ALR, when it is quite common for an English gun to have checkering recut, reblueing or rust browning etc.

For an English gun this is quite common and does not impact the value of the arm.  Why is it a negative for an ALR?

Fleener

[Avlrc]

  Minimum restoration is fine with me. Heck, 7/8 of my collection are in this category. If I had limited my collection to no restoration, I would have much more money today, LOL.  But I don't want re-browning & checkering or carving enhanced.  I don't want my antiques to look like contemporary rifles. The older I get, the more I appreciate relics or untouched rifles.  I want to be able to tell at a glance that my rifles are antique.  That is my negative on too much rejuvenating. IMO It is the collectors of the ALR that make it a negative. 

[120RIR]

I guess it all depends on how one might define "restoration".  I think everyone can agree that attempting to un-age a piece (for lack of a better term on my part) due to ignorance or for the intent to deceive is a negative.  Restoration for the purposes of preservation or returning a piece to what we archaeologists might call it's "period of significance" appearance is quite another and certainly there can be a lot of grey area in there.  On the other hand, some find that kind of restoration distasteful as well and I can appreciate the many sides of the debate.  I have a personal preference but that's just it...an opinion based on my background as a collector (albeit a modest one) as opposed to perhaps a dealer or an academic.

[Feltwad]

The trouble with restoration  of English  and Continental. guns especially shotguns is restoration is took to far which is more so in the States, There are things done too guns that do not resemble  what the gun was like when new  a good example of this was a English shotgun by a provincial maker  named Davison of Alnwick UK which was a thread a few months ago in the ALR.
Feltwad

[JV Puleo]

I  think it's a mistake to say over restoration doesn't effect the value of English or continental arms. In my experience it certainly does. Just last March I was shown a cased pair of Wogdens that had suffered over restoration...and they were even in the original box. Potentially a very desirable pair of pistols but they sold for less than half the value customarily associated with such an item.

Those pistols were shown to several people who would have bought them in a heartbeat had they been in their original, worn condition but had no interest as they were....including me.

I think it may be less common in Britain than it is here but they have a smaller collecting community and many more high quality guns that have come down in excellent condition. To some extent, that is why they don't have many reproductions. You need a modern firearms license for a reproduction where you don't need it for an original and there are enough originals in good shape to go around.

As collecting and the study of antique arms matures, as it's been doing for the past 60 or 80 years, tolerance for extreme restoration decreases both here and in Europe. This is just bringing our enthusiasm in line with many much older collecting interests.

[Pukka Bundook]

Very well thought and and written Joe.
Cant argue with that!

All the best,
Richard.

[Bob Roller]

Just like OVER restored major classic cars and I am not thinking of mid 1950's Chevrolets or Plymouths either.Frequently an unrestored English sporting rifles,even worn ones will sometimes exhibit more quality that a long rifle never had to begin with.The Brits made it a common thing to turn out high end guns as did some European makers.John Bivins and I discussed the English and German guns years ago and he said that no matter how fine the workmanship was,the "Cloven Hoof" was a;ways seen in the German guns and I agreed. 
 I claim NO ABILITY as a restorer and never really thought of it as an avocation because wood working and the endless variety of finishes
can be a challenge.I tell anyone that GUNS can be made by low skilled people but FINE FIREARMS are made by skilled craftsmen AND women as proven here by Maria Gray and Smart Dog. .
Getting back to  restoration of guns and cars,simply sanding off old paint or varnish and replacing it with NEW paint and varnish won't work.
Glen Napier who was not well known built fine muzzle loaders in a little shack/shop in a small town 5 miles from me and also restored long riles for a local millionaire and some of them were little more than kindling wood and rust.He was a REstorer with very limited means.
To the opposite extreme was a friend in Florida who stripped his Duesenberg dual cowl phaeton to the last nut and bolt and rebuilt it from the ground up into a supercharged and trophy winning driver he used a lot.RIP Harry V.
Bob Roller

[Feltwad]

Well there restores and a large number who call themselves  restorers who take restoration  far too far  ,one of the main faults is too recut the checkering on English guns it is all flat top checking and there  is nothing worst than hander ling a gun which is 150 -200 years old with crisp checkering if you need to clean  the checkering a coat of paint stripper  and clean with a stiff tooth brush. This mainly applies to the middle of the range  gun which have seen amount of work and grime . The better class of guns those in pristine condition and spent the most part in a oak or mahogany gun case need very little may be an oil rag on the barrel and bore. and not  to something that they  were originally  made
The gun that needs the most restoration is the bottom of the range a gun that has had a hard life spent several decades in poor surroundings with parts missing plus  heavy rust  same for the  bores with a quantity of spiders and other insects some still loaded , most restores will not tackle these jobs mainly because there are plenty of guns in better condition so they end up been broken  up for spares or most likely end up in the furnace These guns  like the top of range  are part of our gun heritage they may be by a provincial gunmaker  and not pleasing to the eye has the top of the London or Birmingham makers but we still must hold them in trust for  those that come after. I have worked on guns rifles in all ignitions from the top of the range to the scrapers of which the scrapers are the most  rewarding
Feltwad
Before




After

[JV Puleo]

Just like OVER restored major classic cars and I am not thinking of mid 1950's Chevrolets or Plymouths either.Frequently an unrestored English sporting rifles,even worn ones will sometimes exhibit more quality that a long rifle never had to begin with.The Brits made it a common thing to turn out high end guns as did some European makers.John Bivins and I discussed the English and German guns years ago and he said that no matter how fine the workmanship was,the "Cloven Hoof" was a;ways seen in the German guns and I agreed. 
 I claim NO ABILITY as a restorer and never really thought of it as an avocation because wood working and the endless variety of finishes
can be a challenge.I tell anyone that GUNS can be made by low skilled people but FINE FIREARMS are made by skilled craftsmen AND women as proven here by Maria Gray and Smart Dog. .
Getting back to  restoration of guns and cars,simply sanding off old paint or varnish and replacing it with NEW paint and varnish won't work.
Glen Napier who was not well known built fine muzzle loaders in a little shack/shop in a small town 5 miles from me and also restored long riles for a local millionaire and some of them were little more than kindling wood and rust.He was a REstorer with very limited means.
To the opposite extreme was a friend in Florida who stripped his Duesenberg dual cowl phaeton to the last nut and bolt and rebuilt it from the ground up into a supercharged and trophy winning driver he used a lot.RIP Harry V.
Bob Roller

Exactly the same reaction is going on in the high-end classic car world. Thirty years ago if a car wasn't "restored" it was either ignored or considered a candidate for restoration. Not now. Original, preserved original condition is very much in demand and cars that have never been apart and are still presentable are not only bringing big money but the widely cited attitude is that should not be restored. Provenance is also a major consideration. So many cars were modified when they were restored that it is very important to be able to say that it is exactly as originally made...not the product of someones imagination in the 1960s.

[Bob Roller]

The phaeton Harry V restored came to him in boxes from California and another long time owner/driver furnished a supercharged engine.
The man that furnished that engine had a 100% original Duesenberg  convertible coupe and I put a clutch in it while still in high school.
The phaeton was owned by movie mogul Howard Hawks when new and the coupe by a WVa coal mine owner and new in 1930.
I got a call from a man last year asking if I still remembered the timing on the 2 cams and I gave him the numbers on the last one we rebuilt and he said that can't work and I told him the car was timed by a friendly,curious State Trooper at 140 MPH with radar on a ONE time test on  a stretch of road.Tromp it and GO in the grand manner back then but not now.Too pricey to risk in today;s traffic.I have a LOT of great memories about these cars and posted them on the ACD Forum many years ago beginning in 1985.Only 13 now have original drive lines and fire walls or so I was told.They are a parts scramble and I have talked personally with with Jay Leno's restorer Randy Ema at Auburn,Indiana
and he agreed with that assessment.
Bob Roller

[JV Puleo]

I  think the number might be a bit higher but you are right...most Dusenbergs suffer from "mix and match" parts. The absolutely intact examples are far more desirable. Those never appear at auction because they change hands privately between the handful of enthusiasts that can afford them. There is actually a sub-set of Dusenberg owners now that are trying to identify and return parts to the cars they originally came from. I'm not sure how that will work but it shows how important having an intact specimen is now as opposed to 30 or 40 years ago.

I've never worked on one but I started out repairing old cars with American Rolls Royces. It gives you a different perspective when you've been exposed to the very best from the start. I feel the same way about English guns or, better said, the best quality English guns. Nothing before or since compares to them.

[ntqlvr1948]

 The English are big on refinishing guns. I just bought an English heavy dragoon pistol from the 1780's and it is in beautful condition but it is refinished. The metal parts were left alone and rust free, but the brass parts are polished. I knew that when I bought it but the price was right, and it is regimentally marked. I like my guns straight out of the attic

[Mike Brooks]

Cars and guns should never be compared. Completely irrelevant. Apples and oranges.

[AZshot]

The cultures of America and the UK are different.

The history of America vs the UK is different.

The quality of the American guns vs UK is different. 

The laws of America vs UK are different. 

I could go into paragraphs of each, but I'm sure everyone can think about it.

[Bob Roller]

I  think the number might be a bit higher but you are right...most Dusenbergs suffer from "mix and match" parts. The absolutely intact examples are far more desirable. Those never appear at auction because they change hands privately between the handful of enthusiasts that can afford them. There is actually a sub-set of Dusenberg owners now that are trying to identify and return parts to the cars they originally came from. I'm not sure how that will work but it shows how important having an intact specimen is now as opposed to 30 or 40 years ago.

I've never worked on one but I started out repairing old cars with American Rolls Royces. It gives you a different perspective when you've been exposed to the very best from the start. I feel the same way about English guns or, better said, the best quality English guns. Nothing before or since compares to them.

THAT is what happened to me.Any appreciation that I may have had for common,beneficial cars vanished after a ride in a Model"j and
coming up behind two "hot Fords"side by side racing and having to apply heavy braking to keep from rear ending them.Road testing the
Duesenberg was the occasion.Howard Shannet had a 1930 Rolls Royce convertible coupe that was good looking car and when I was reassembling a Duesenberg head and setting the cam timing he came into the shop and asked me what I was doing and I said"Finishing a valve replacement.all 32 of them  and he says.I'll never have to that to my car.My reply was that his Rolls couldn't run fast enough to wear out and he let me alone.That car had a lot of valve chatter and I was really careful about the clearances that were .025 on all 32 and when we restarted it it purred like a kitten and that road test was when we almost hit those Fords.The Duesenberg was a convertible sedan built new for Col.Jacib Schick,the razor man in 1933 by Hermann Brunn Body Co.in Buffalo N.Y.and 2 more to the same pattern later.$16,500
then.$1.659,000 two years ago.
Bob Roller

[JTR]

Cars and Long rifles are two different stories, and there's not much point in mixing the two.
Even my 17 year euro base model sports coupe is worth more than 95% of the very best long rifles.
If you're going to discuss restoration here, best to stick with the guns....
Just my simple opinion, John

[AZshot]

Indeed.  Cars spend their a large part of their lives outdoors in rain, sun, and and in constant use.  Compare restoration to colonial furniture, original finishes.  Or Tiffany lampshades, original finishes.  You go at those with sandpaper and you just killed the history, and the value. 

[J.M.Browning]

I have no interest in restored firearms or wall hangers I definitely would not find comparable value in two guns one untouched in hi shootable condition the other restored by the maker my very subjective opinion.