Author Topic: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)  (Read 1397 times)

Offline Exkeydet

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This is truly a case of "throwing oneself on the mercy of the court". I must confess that I possess no knowledge of early flintlock weapons beyond the nuggets that I've picked-up in this forum. Envious of the beautiful examples of 18th Century firearms posted on ALR.org, but lacking the finances necessary to invest in such arms, I went shopping for an affordable flintlock rifle to hang over my fireplace. I found what was advertised as a "Philadelphia Flintlock Rifle" selling for $795 on Guns International.com. I spoke to the seller and was told that it had been part of a collection assembled by a father-son duo in the 1950's-1960's.

The weapon arrived today. Here are the general specs: 1) OA Length: 53", 2) Barrel Length: 39", 3) Bore: 0.5125". 4) Top flat of barrel is stamped PHIL (presumably for Philadelphia), 5) there is simple scrollwork inletted into the stock in front of and behind the lockplate.
Although advertised as a rifle, it appears to be a smoothbore, although it is equipped with sights.

Here are my concerns: 1) The lower edge of the buttstock is somewhat curved toward the heel, 2) The brass buttplate is rounded at the top, 3) The brass patchbox is very crudely made, almost like a piece of "folk art" and 4) the inletting for the patchbox shows boring marks and 5) Both lockplate screws appear to be replacements.

I have a 3-day window to evaluate the weapon before I have to return it. Any thoughts that the group might care to offer would be very much appreciated. Is this weapon an 18th Century weapon or a fake? If it's genuine, what exactly do I have?















Offline rich pierce

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2023, 01:13:29 AM »
My quick look leads me to guess it’s a 1950s to 1960s build, possibly using an original barrel.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2023, 01:25:08 AM »
Pretty typical of a homespun gun from the 50s to mid 70s. No school of reference here. The parts to make a rifle these days is what’s being charged for the rifle.
 If you want something to shoot or something that you can say “this is typical of an 18th century gun” avoid.
 If you’re looking for wall art and that’s all, pretty good deal.
 This piece is not an antique in my opinion.
 Good luck 🍀!
W
Stop Marxism in America

Offline 120RIR

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2023, 01:48:49 AM »
Agreed with the comments so far...definitely not an antique although as suggested, the barrel is probably old but with a new rifle built around it.  I'd say it's "vintage" but definitely not antique (wherever that dividing line may be).

Offline ntqlvr1948

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2023, 02:30:42 AM »
Depends on the price...if its not cheap send it back...not very old

Offline JTR

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2023, 02:39:05 AM »
Not antique, and not worth 800 bucks.
John Robbins

Offline wormey

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2023, 04:46:13 AM »
Send it back, quickly. Wormey

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2023, 05:01:59 AM »
You may want to buy some reference books on antique rifles & muskets as well as visit a few antique gunshows and museums. Also take a look at the Bruce Miller library of rifles on this forum.

Get your money back on your purchase.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline HIB

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2023, 06:41:07 AM »
Agreed.     Send it back  ! ! !     Quickly if not sooner.   Follow advice above, especially antique rifle shows.   There are two coming up in next several months.   One in York, Pa.  And the other in Front Royal, Va.   Either one or both will provide the beginning of the education you need before  you loose your shirt.   Best of luck,  Hope you live near Pa. or Va.

Offline Exkeydet

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2023, 03:52:49 PM »
My sincere thanks to all of you that offered advice and opinions. I suspected that it was a fake as soon as I opened the box and all of you confirmed my suspicians. It's going back to the dealer. Thankfully I purchased it with a VISA card, so if there's an issue, I can dispute the charges. Once again the old adage "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is..." proves true. I live in Virginia and York PA is only four hours away, so I'll do some research and then hit a couple of shows. Again, many thanks.

Offline Longknife

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2023, 05:05:45 PM »
Be advised though that if $795 is what you can afford then this is the type of rifle you will get. A decent contemporary rifle will easily double that amount and an original?,,,,,MUCH more!...LK
Ed Hamberg

Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2023, 05:16:22 PM »
Lots of gun shows and other resources in VA. Check out the forum "Upcoming Long rifle related shows/events" on this site. What part of the state are you in?

Dale H

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2023, 05:23:51 PM »
 There happens to be nice show in Lexington Ky here in 2 weeks.
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Offline Longknife

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2023, 05:45:57 PM »
Also be advised that if you actually use that fireplace, it will ruin any firearm you hang over it due to wood shrinkage.....LK
Ed Hamberg

Offline dadybear1

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Re: Novice needs help with Identification (Fake or Genuine Antique?)
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2023, 09:16:20 PM »
PRETTY WOOD--BUT???