New Member Needs Some information on a Recent Acquisition

[WisconsinShooter]

Hi.  New to the forum and new to the world of long-rifles.   I recently purchased an old muzzle loading rifle and in doing some research on these guns found this site to be a wealth of information.  I'm hoping that some of the experts here can provide some information regarding the gun.  I always try to document as much information as possible about the guns I own so that I can pass that info on to the next generation when I'm done with it.  So, anything you can tell me about the gun would be much appreciated.  The gun is currently in transit.  What I know about it is that it is about 31 caliber, 35 inch barrel, good bore, and the triggers function properly.  The seller claims it to be in very good condition.  I'll try to attach the pictures that the seller provided of the gun.  Thanks for your help.

[Tanselman]

If you are asking about condition, it appears the stock has been refinished [lack of discoloring around edges of capbox and inlays] and the barrel shortened about 3 inches [based on current ramrod pipe spacing]. If you are asking about where the gun was made, the first big question is... is there any name or initials on the top barrel flat several inches behind the rear sight? If so, please post pictures of it.

Shelby Gallien

[WisconsinShooter]

Thanks Tanselman.  That's just the sort of information I was hoping you guys could provide.  The gun is not in my hands yet.  When it arrives, I'll check for any additional markings and let you know what I find.  In the meantime,  any additional information or thoughts on condition, possible maker, gun features, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  This is my first old percussion rifle and I'm trying to learn more about them.

[rich pierce]

Looks 1850s plus of minus. Nicely made and intact. Percussion halfstocks are hard to place as Gunmakers were plentiful and moving around and inlays, locks, buttplates, and guards were widely available.

[WisconsinShooter]

Thanks for the response rich.  I am very curious about the originality of the gun.   You describe the gun as "intact".  Do you believe that the gun is pretty much "as built" or do you see any features that may not be original to the gun?  I believe Tanselman is correct that the stock was likely refinished at some point as it seems a bit too good to be original. 

The gun is not yet in my hands but I'd be glad to provide any additional pictures needed to evaluate the gun once it arrives.

It is my intention to shoot the gun and perhaps even do a little squirrel hunting with it.   Obviously, the value of the gun is significantly reduced if it's been refinished or significantly altered so I'd be more likely to shoot it if this is the case. 

Thanks

[Tanselman]

Your rifle was a better-than-average gun when made, based on the finely figured stock wood, German silver capbox, and inlay work. The cap box is more complex than most, indicating a lengthier job to mount, so along with the inlay work, the owner probably paid a couple extra bucks for the gun. It has survived without major damage; everything appears to fit well together, no cracks in stock, and overall, it's pretty solid for a 170 year old rifle, so the gun is relatively "intact."

I like the pewter repair under the nipple and side lug. The wood was burned out by the salts from the percussion caps over time, and the owner cleaned up the burned area and filled it nicely with cast pewter. It looks good, and in my opinion is more a plus than minus... showing its history. A couple wood screws appear replaced.... they all should be iron, but a couple appear to be modern brass. I'd leave them as-is.

As mentioned, it becomes harder to place these half-stocked guns as the years went by and many of the specific regional details faded away. At first glance, I thought the guard reminded me of western PA [Pittsburgh and beyond], but after looking at the deer, squirrel, dog and bird inlays, and the subtle "fish belly" in the lower butt line [slight convex curve], the gun may have been made in New York, or another possibility is Ohio. Check the top of the barrel closely after you get it for any trace of initials or name several inches behind the rear sight. Even if you can't read it, we may be able to figure it out for you.

Shelby Gallien

[WisconsinShooter]

Thanks so much for the excellent information Shelby.  Being new to the site, i wasn't sure who the experts were here.  Sounds to me like l found one.

A question regarding the likely re-finish of the stock.  Could you please give me a bit more information about what to look for to determine whether the stock is refinished. Assuming that it is refinished,  is this considered to be a major detraction from the quality of the gun to collectors.

As to the shortened barrel.  Once the gun is in my hands, could you advise me as to what to look for to confirm this.

Thanks again.

[rich pierce]

Old guns not refinished will often look like old tools found in the barn. Yours has shine.

[Bob Roller]

High mileage old gun.Can we see the rest of it?That half stocked rifle with the back action lock is a very nice one.
I have owned several of these but remember little about them.
Bob Roller

[83nubnEC]

Mr Roller: I can see what a back action lock looks like from the outside, but do you or someone else have a picture of what the inside of the lock looks like? Curious as to what and how they actually work! thanx

[Dennis Glazener]

Mr Roller: I can see what a back action lock looks like from the outside, but do you or someone else have a picture of what the inside of the lock looks like? Curious as to what and how they actually work! thanx

Here is anL&R https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/763/1/LOCK-LR-800

[JTR]

Here's a couple pictures of an old one, from the wreck of a New York target rifle posted here a while back. 

Here is half cock;


And here is full cock;

[83nubnEC]

Thanks for the pictures. They answer the question as to the workings of the back action lock. Just never knew the lay out of the internals.

[WisconsinShooter]

Got the gun today and wanted to provide an update and some additional information for those who have been kind enough to reply so far.

First the good: 
1.The gun arrived in one piece with no big surprises upon opening the box.
2. Everything functions very nicely.
3. The bore is excellent.
4.  Seller shipped an old 31 cal bullet mold with the gun (pic attached)

The not so good:
1.  Can't find any additional markings on the barrel or elsewhere to help ID the origin of the gun.
2.  Gun has definitely been "cleaned up".  All metal parts including furniture, inlays and the barrel have been "polished".
3.  Nipple looks to me to be a fairly modern replacement.

The barrel actually measures 36 inches from muzzle to tange.  The bore is a slightly larger diameter at the muzzle and decreases to 31 cal about 1 inch into the bore. The barrel is .908 inches wide and the breech and .872 at the bore.

I've attached a couple more pictures to show some parts of the gun not shown in the original post.

I do have some additional questions. 
1.  The gun doesn't have a ramrod.  I'd like to come up with one that would look right and be appropriate for the gun.  Any thoughts.
2.  I'd like to shoot the gun.  My assessment of the gun based on the fact that it is in good condition and perhaps not particularly "collectable" is that it would be fine to carefully shoot the gun using light loads.  Does this sound reasonable?
3.  As the gun has already been "cleaned up"  would it be unreasonable to take steps to try to get the gun (particularly the barrel) looking "right" again? If so, what could be done to get some patina back.

I realize that the third question can be a can of worms.  I definitely don't want to mess with the gun if it is of "collectable" quality.  I'm still not clear if this gun qualifies as a collector, a shooter, or somewhere in between. 

Thanks for all the information you guys have provided.  This is my first old percussion rifle and I'm afraid I may be addicted.  I've been collecting old colt and winchester for a while (even have a nice 1849 colt pocket pistol in 31 cal to go with this rifle).  Anybody got a nice flintlock for sale!

[snapper]

Based on what we can see and what you have said, I would not hesitate to shoot it.

Even if it were worth 100K I would still shoot it.

The one caution I would have is the condition of the drum to barrel attachment.   I am not much on drums, and it is IMO your weak point of shooting the rifle.   

If it were mine, I would likely pull the drum to check on the threads.   Doing this might not be that easy and assuming you have some mechanical abilities.

Fleener

[WisconsinShooter]

Hi Snapper.  Thanks for the response.  I like your attitude towards shooting old guns.  I've got quite a few old winchesters and have shot them all.  Attached a pic of the drum on the gun.  Looks to me like removal would be a challenge based on the amount of corrosion.  May not be the smartest thing but I'll probably go ahead and shoot it as is.  Not sure if my thinking is correct but it seems to me that being at 31 caliber and shooting a 47 grain round ball should make it safer than shooting a comparable gun with a bigger hole in the end of the barrel.  Heck, it has the ballistics just slightly hotter than a modern 22 LR.    My research has found that you can run as little as 10 grains of BP and that would be my intention. Question - what is the purpose of the screw on the end of the drum?

[Tanselman]

Based on your last photo, the drum, or side lug, looks like it could be a modern replacement with only superficial surface rust. It has a modern bolt in the end for a clean-out port, supporting a more recent vintage. With a little penetrating oil and letting it sit for a while, it may back out without a problem. I'd also do the same with the breech plug, again "just in case." If the gun is in decent shape, as it appears to be from your photos, this should be relatively easy. Then examine both male and female threads for wear and corrosion, particularly toward the firing end. It's a small investment in time to make sure the gun is safe to shoot, and then you'll never have to ask yourself, "Geeeze, where did my fingers go?"

Shelby Gallien 

[WisconsinShooter]

Thanks to all for the excellent information you've provided.  I'm absolutely loving the new gun and have developed a great interest in long guns and respect for the artists who built them.  Already looking for my next one - maybe a flintlock.  I wanted to provide something of an end to the story by letting you know that I did shoot a few balls through it - just couldn't resist.  The gun functioned flawlessly and with decent accuracy.  The load I used (11.5g FFF  BP and a 47g round ball) has about the same muzzle energy as a modern 22 long rifle - absolutely no recoil and very fun to shoot.  I like to think the old girl appreciated the opportunity to blow some smoke one more time.




online photo border generator