Potassium Permanganate or Something Else

[bluenoser]

I hold Jud Brennan's work in very high regard and try to study his pieces at every opportunity.  I am particularly interested in his aging techniques and find this series of photos on his blog spot particularly interesting.
https://judsonbrennan.blogspot.com/2015/04/
Friday, April 10, 2015
"Applying Finish to the Stock on the Antes Rifle"
I wonder what he has applied to the rifle and am thinking it just might be potassium permanganate.  Perhaps, if it is not a trade secret, Jud will step in and tell us what is happening here.

I used potassium permanganate to simulate aging on my second build way back in the 1980's and was quite pleased with the result.  Unfortunately, it wore completely away as the years passed and I have not used it since.  Looking back, I applied the permanganate after applying the finish, and think that might have been a mistake.  I wonder if, perhaps, it should have been applied before the finish, or maybe after the first couple of finish coats and before the final finish is built up.  Obviously, the objective would be to seal the permanganate in to keep it from wearing away.  I did come across my potassium permanganate just the other day and, after seeing these photos, wonder if it is something worth considering for my current project.
Then again, this could be something completely different.
What say ye?

[Stoner creek]

Jud takes weeks to get a finish on. I have an Anties gun from him and he had the gun built and stained 2 months before he shipped it. Whatever he’s doing his colors won’t change significantly through time. I doubt that he’s using permanganate. He’s a member on this forum. Give him a personal message.
If no luck send me a pm.
W

[rich pierce]

Looks like bone black to me. Potassium permanganate staining does not hold color on wood. It stains antler and bone - protein rich materials - permanently. Not do with wood. Different chemistry.

[bluenoser]

Well Stoner, I am truly in envy now!
I could PM Jud, but would prefer not to be that forward.  Perhaps he will respond if willing to discuss his finishing techniques, but I respect his privacy if he would rather not.
Thanks Rich for the info on wood vs protein rich materials.  That explains why it did not stand up on my build and reinforces the opinions that we are likely not looking at potassium permanganate.
I have to say, It would never have occurred to me to apply such a heavy coat of bone black or other earth pigment.

[Hungry Horse]

 I have not found better technical information on stock staining and aging than those on Jim Kiblers videos. As for potassium permanganate, everything I’ve used it on was a disappointment.

Hungry Horse

[TWM]

It has been many years, probably 40, since I built my last long rifle.  At the the time I used potassium permanganate to stain the stock.  It was applied prior to applying the final finish.  The colour is as good today as the day it was stained.  I brushed on a saturated solution of potassium permanganate until the stock was almost black looking.  After drying I started to rub back the finish with very fine steel wool and oil until the colour lightened and the grain, curl, started to appear.  I continued rubbing until I achieved the colour I wanted.  If I built another long rifle today, I would not hesitate to use the same method.  Perhaps the secret to retaining colour is  applying the potassium permanganate first.  Just my experience and thoughts.

[45-110]

I also have used permangante with fine results, you gave to stain first before the finish goes on. Still have 1 of my rifles done that way in 1969 and no fading of colors. It was pre internet days then when we where all using it. Believe the technique was in Dixie catalogs.
kw

[bluenoser]

I have been thinking about Rich's comment about the inability of permanganate to stain wood.  As I recall, the intent was not to stain the wood.  As with earth pigments, the permanganate is built up on the surface and then rubbed back to the desired effect.  I believe the process I used was the same as that used by TVM, but I failed to adequately seal it in.  I do not know that permanganate holds any advantage over earth pigments - other than ease of application, and it may well hold significant disadvantages.
Agree with Hungry Horse regarding value of Jim Kibler's excellent videos, but Jim's is not the only approach to the task.  There is something to be said for considering all options.

[Jim Kibler]

Jud's work is certainly impeccable and I love it.  I don't think he gets enough credit for the high level he works and the production he's maintained over many years.  At least by the general muzzleloading enthusiasts...

Anyways, I'm not certain what he's using, but it looks to me something like bone black, lamp black or perhaps something like screened ashes.  Based on finished guns, it's clear he has a number of different techniques he uses as well.

Jim

[bluenoser]

I think Jim might have hit on something here.  Screened ashes, dust from the vacuum or other generally overlooked substances could be mulled into the finishing material the same as can be done with earth pigments.  I believe I feel some experiments coming on

[JPK]

Permangante doesn’t stain the wood, it is an acid. It oxidizes the wood as well as other materials, including your fingers.

[bluenoser]

Potassium permanganate is a salt.  It is neither acidic nor basic and, I believe, serves the same purpose in finishing as earth pigments.

[JPK]

Potassium permanganate (KMnO4) is a strong oxidizing agent.

[bluenoser]

Agreed, but I believe we are drifting off subject

[rich pierce]

The challenge of experimenting with stains is not knowing how colorfast they are till years later. But, I have guns I’ve re-tinted 2-3 times over the years. Especially some red maple that turned awful dark over time after staining with home brew iron saturated aquafortis and apparently not neutralizing sufficiently.

[bluenoser]

How true.
I did a color fastness test on a fair number of supposedly color fast aniline dyes about 25 years ago.  I made up maple test pieces measuring approximately 2 1/2" x 5" x 1/4", dyed one face with the various dyes, covered one half of each sample and set them in a sunny place for several months.  The amount of fading was quite striking - particularly, as I recall, in the darker colors.  I still have those test pieces somewhere.
Acidic ferric nitrate is known to turn the wood darker over time, if not neutralized.  I believe the House brothers use that to good advantage.

[flinchrocket]

An acetylene rich flame certainly puts out a lot of black smoke that can be scraped off a piece of metal.