Swiss 1-1/2F

[DMacKay]

With the limited to unavailability of 2f has anyone used 1-1/2F?  I’m shooting a 58 cal and local shop has 6 lbs of 1-1/2f in stock which I’m thinking I may go buy right now.

[Penske]

Mainly used for black powder cartridge guns. You may need to adjust your charge up a bit from your regular 2F load.
Regards,
Peter

[snapper]

I used 1.5 swiss in my long range ML for quite a few years.  Had ignition problems with it.   Keep in mind that these rifles have a very small flash hole in the nipple and the flash channel in the breech is not as large as some rifles.

Fleener

[smylee grouch]

i USE 1&1/2 sWISS IN BOTH MY 58 AND 62 FLINTERS WITH NO PROBLEMS. aCURATE AND SEEMS TO KICK LESS SHARPLY

[457121]

With musket caps it goes lights right off, #11's seem to slightly hang fire.

[Herb]

I used Swiss 1 1/2F in two .58 flintlock rifles.  The first was built of Track of the Wolf parts, with a 36" barrel and a flint hooked breech.  That breech plug had a 1 inch long by 3/8" diameter powder chamber, with the flash hole at the back end.  The Swiss powder bridged at the mouth and the primer flame could not reach it to ignite it.  I had (IIRC) 35 flashes in the pan out of 50 hammer falls.  The cure was to drill the powder chamber out to 7/16 inch, which Track says can be done.  That cured the ignition problems.

The powder is very dense.  A measure cut to hold 100 grains by weight of Goex 2F held 118 grains of Swiss 1 1/2F, no tapping to settle.

Here is a comparison of powders, each 100 grains by weight:

.58 Hawken fullstock flintlock, 36 inch barrel:

Number of shots    Average velocity   Average extreme spread
Goex 2F          Olde Eynsford 2F     Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F      Swiss 2F          Swiss 1 1/2F
34  1608/37    30  1687/67            38  1651/58                   6  1761/55      18  1487/47

.58 Leman flintlock  24 inch barrel:
8  1313/38        8  1527/45             8  1484/41                   4  1598/18       4  1413/34

Swiss 1 1/2F is a good powder, but don't shoot more than 100 grains of it.  If you do, the bore fouls so badly that after 3 or 4 shots you won't be able to get a ball down.  The Mad Monk elaborated on this in one of his posts here.

[Daryl]

Swiss 1 1/2F is a good powder, but don't shoot more than 100 grains of it.  If you do, the bore fouls so badly that after 3 or 4 shots you won't be able to get a ball down.  The Mad Monk elaborated on this in one of his posts here.

Herb - I think that likely depends on the bore size. DPhar uses 140gr. in his 16 bore, without fouling problems.

[Greg Pennell]

I shoot 1 1/2f in my 16 bore fowling piece.  I’ve had no issues with ignition at all…as a matter of fact I’ve shot several rounds with 1 1/2f in the pan, just to see if it would work. It’s noticeably slower (of course) than priming with either 2f or 3f, but the big round faced Chambers lock fired it right up.

Greg

[smylee grouch]

When working up loads for my 62 flinter I shot 40 shots in one session, 110 gr. 1&1/2 Swiss with no fouling. Tight combo, 610 ball, 20/1000 patch with bear oil lube.

[Marcruger]

I was just asking Bill Knight about this earlier this week.  Herb, your information and timing are excellent, and many thanks. 

I was indeed curious how Swiss 1.5f compared to Goex 2f considering powder shortages.  I have found Swiss to be faster than Goex for a given f granulation, and therefore wondered if 1.5f Swiss was close to the same velocity as 2f Goex. 

I infer from your helpful chart that in a shorter barrel, the 1.5f Swiss is a little faster than 2f Goex.  As the barrel lengthens, it appears the 2f Goex is faster. 

Of course, there are many, many variables in there, like the particular barrel characteristics and bore size, but this tells me they are not too far apart. 

It sounds like folks with a stock of 1.5f Goex should give it a try side-by-side with 2f Goex to see if it hits near point-of-aim, and if the accuracy holds true. 

Has anyone else done this comparison from the bench? 

Best wishes, and God Bless,    Marc

From Herb - "Here is a comparison of powders, each 100 grains by weight:

.58 Hawken fullstock flintlock, 36 inch barrel:

Number of shots    Average velocity   Average extreme spread
Goex 2F          Olde Eynsford 2F     Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F      Swiss 2F          Swiss 1 1/2F
34  1608/37    30  1687/67            38  1651/58                   6  1761/55      18  1487/47

.58 Leman flintlock  24 inch barrel:
8  1313/38        8  1527/45             8  1484/41                   4  1598/18       4  1413/34

[Herb]

Here are some of the powders I test in rifles I built.  The one at the right side  is the first can of Olde Eynsford sold at the Fort Bridger Rendezvous, I think in September 2013.  The can is marked Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F, "Test Sample, Not for Resale".  The rifles are my first Bridger Hawken copy, don't remember what the next one is ( one of maybe 50 I built) and my .58 flint Hawken.  You can right click the picture to enlarge it to read, but the target shows five shots of Swiss 1 1/2F measured with a Goex 2F measure cut to hold exactly 100 grains of powder.  It held 117 grains of Swiss 1 1/2F by weight.  The mean velocity was 1647 fps with a spread of 57 fps.  So I guess I was wrong about the 100 grain limit of Swiss 1 1/2F, but there is a real upper limit of how much powder burns without wiping every shot.

[Herb]

The second rifle is a .54 Hawken I made with a Douglas barrel.  I engraved the barrel for the guy I built it for.

[Daryl]

but the target shows five shots of Swiss 1 1/2F measured with a Goex 2F measure cut to hold exactly 100 grains of powder.  It held 117 grains of Swiss 1 1/2F by weight. 

The Swiss 1 1/2F is definitely more dense (higher specific gravity) than GOEX. A measure that holds 85gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F holds 78gr. of GOEX 3F
& that Swiss charge produced some 60fps higher velocity than did the 3F GOEX load.

[Herb]

Uh- that would be a RIGHT click to enlarge the picture.

[Martin S.]

Herb, I know this is an old thread, but could you post a pic of your Leman flintlock, and perhaps let me know the source for your lock?

[Herb]

The lock was an L&R 900 from Track of the Wolf..

[Bsharp]

https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi

If you use the P-Max black powder internal ballistics simulator it will show the difference between using different F powders.

I just drove to Graf's in Missouri and bought 2#s of the Swiss 1.5F to try in my larger bore rifles.

[ only 598 miles from Michigan, but I saved the hazmat fee ] [smile]

I will post results later.

[Daryl]

Looking forward to those results.

[Herb]

Thanks for that reference, Bsharp.  I tested it against my chronograph data from weight-corrected charges in three rifles.  In a 36" barreled .58 flintlock Hawken and Swiss 3F, 12 tests of 45 shots averaged 1713 fps.  The PMAX calculated 1765 fps for the same, 52 fps higher.

For four tests of 23 shots and Swiss 2F, my average was 1674 fps compared to 1631 fps for PMAX, 43 fps less.  For 10 tests of 42 shots of Swiss 1 1/2F, my average was 1604 fps and the PMAX was 1649 fps, 45 fps higher.

In a 24" Leman flintlock, four shots of 100 grains of S2F averaged 1598 fps, PMAX predicted 1545 fps, 53 fps less.  Then 100 grains of S1 1/2F averaged 1413 fps compared to the PMAX of 1464 fps, 51 fps more.

A 33" .54 Bridger averaged 1659 fps for four groups of 15 shots of S2F, PMAX said 1578 fps, 81 fps less.  Ten shots of S 1 1/2F averaged 1804 fps, PMAX said 1738 fps, 66 fps less.