Another question for shot/bullet/hunting pouch makers

[J.D.]

Maybe I'm over thinking this, but when looking at modern made shot pouches, both in person, in photos, and on line, I see what appears as 10-14 stitches per inch in the construction of those bags, using what appears to be rather small diameter thread. This begs the question, at least in my mind, at what point does the high stitch count, combined with the small diameter thread, compromise the integrity of the leather, when a bag is in hard use?

I have seen warnings of the possibility of cutting through the leather by overly tightening the stitches while sewing, especially when using smaller diameter thread, and we know that stitching across the width of the strap, at the top of bags, can cause early failure of the leather at the location of that stitching.

I understand that most people who make and use  these bags do not subject them to hard use, occasionally bordering on abuse, but some do, which, again, begs the question, is there a line between pure aesthetics and durability of those nicely done bags?

[bigsmoke]

J D,
I used to own October Country Muzzleloading in Idaho, but we sold it nearly 20 years ago.  Anyway, the point here is that we made mucho bags over the years.  I think we had our machines set at 12 stitches per inch, and we used a medium heavy thread.  Honestly, I cannot recall exactly what weight it was, but it was somewhat heavier than typical thread that is used on fabric.  We gave a lifetime guarantee on our pouches where if the bag should ever fail, we would repair or replace it at the owner's choice.  In 21 years time, we had exactly zero takers.  Our bags were made out of 5 oz "oil tanned" leather.  Out of the thousands of bags we made, that has to be an astonishing track record.  I'm sure that other makers never could come close to that.
So, that's my experience, others can vary.
John (Bigsmoke)

[Beaverman]

Understand that those high stitch count seams are done on machine, hand sewing is a different story, most of my bags and accoutrements are 5 per inch, no need to use anymore, I have bags and sheaths and other larger products that have been in use for 25 years and still going strong,

[J.D.]

Well, that sounds pretty definitive.    Thank you for those very informative replies.

Many years ago, in my custom knife making days, I Sewed sheaths, by hand, using 5 stiches to the inch, in grooved 8 oz leather. Never had one come back.
Hand sewing lighter wt leather appears, to me, to be a different animal, but maybe not so much.

 Thanks again, for the help.

[James Rogers]

IMO there are very few bag styled items that one will find at 5 to the inch historically. Maybe cartridge boxes for war time, bandolier bags attached to a rear panel, etc. That said, there are plenty of bags and modern made items made at 5 or 6 to the inch that hold up just fine and modern western style work is commonly seen at 6-7 and put in a groove. I would lose the groover for making early historical work. Some stitches were hidden in a slit on certain applications but grooving stitches prevents a good "lay".  Stitches per inch coincides with leather thickness, thread size, awl size and of course use of the item being stitched.
I have seen 19th century documents pricing leather work by stitches per inch.
Pictured below is a leather covered buckle hand stitched at 32 to the inch.
Also pictured is an English made saddle that is done at 12 to the inch on the knee roll and a tack every 1.25" on the side area panel keeping the flocking in place. Different spi on the same item but doing a different task.

[Tumbledown]

Grooving stitches allows them to lay below the surface of the surrounding leather, reducing abraiding. On pouches, there probably isn't enough friction in rubbing against something to matter, but on something like a saddle it is desired.

[James Rogers]

 

Grooving stitches allows them to lay below the surface of the surrounding leather, reducing abraiding. On pouches, there probably isn't enough friction in rubbing against something to matter, but on something like a saddle it is desired.

Yes, you will find grooved stitching on western cowboy saddlery. On old world styled work, even saddles, its on the surface except where its placed in a slit and hidden in some applications. 

All the following is not in a grooved trough.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I used to own a British P53 bayonet scabbard that was sewn at 16 SPI. The frog for it was at 12 SPI.

[T.C.Albert]

Here is a row of stitches laid in a slit as James mentioned. I tried to get a shot of a place where you can see the thread in the slit, but the whole idea is that it not be seen at all I believe. The stitch was done on a southern key basket I copied. The slit seam is in the groove along the very bottom


TC Albert

[J.D.]

This thread has become very informative. I do appreciate everyone's comments.

James: Your comments make a lot of sense, though the strength and durability of the large number of spi, do to so many perforations in the leather,  is rather counter intuitive, from my unlearned perspective. In reviewing TC Albert's very informative book, last evening, I did see, finally, where reference was made of two original bags constructed with 11spi, which supports what you reported.

An #8 overstitch wheel was bought a few weeks ago, and I have been contemplating buying #10 and #12 pricking wheels, which led to my apparent confusion as to the durability of relatively high stitch counts, in leather goods.

I also viewed your web page, and I must say your work is exquisitely executed. Very, very nice. I may steal...ahem...borrow...some of your ideas, regarding construction and embellishment, though not so eloquently executed, for my own work.

I have done quite a lot of research, into several areas of 18th century life ways, however, my research into period leather working is practically nil.
That will be rectified. What little research, recently done, suggests the D shaped harness buckles were probably more commonly used in the 18th and early 19th centuries to secure strapping, of all kinds, than the square buckles, and especially the round buckles, with a center bar, so often used today. There is much to learn.

Again, I want to thank everyone for their comments. I do appreciate the help.

[thecapgunkid]

J.D.  if you want good advice for hand sewing, then don't look at anything off the shelf or industrial.  Find guys like T.C.Albert and James Rogers as posted here.  They're among the best I've seen

I wrote about the Chinese Patcher and how to get something looking like hand stitching in a recent "Every Man..." but even that is a little weak.  The best advice I can give you from the shoemaking bench is...If it is a soft leather, then stitch in small stitches to avoid crimping ( referred to as "grinning" by Jacob Reese in 1803) and try not to worry about the stitches being so close as to weaken the leather.   Deer, Elk and other supple leathers have a remarkable ability to stay together and not tear.

If it is veg tanned or stiffer leather watch out for over sized holes and use thicker thread as your stitches stretch out in length. Generally, as my shoemaking master taught me, the length between stitches should equal the thickness of both edges of the leather you are sewing in this type of arrangement

Oh Yeah...it reflects on your mom if you don't post your work so we can all enjoy looking at it.

Hope this helps,

Capgun

[J.D.]

Yes sir. It does help a lot. I am currently using goat skin, as recommended in Ken Scott's videos. As far as the presenting the most basic information, as I am, now, learning, those videos IMHO, a decent place to start. T.C. Albert's book is good too, but also pretty basic, in many ways.

I have seen photos of T.C. Albert's, and James Roger's work, and I concur. Excellent workmanship. Mark Elliot ain't no slouch either.

I am currently obtaining better/proper tools and practicing a few different techniques on scrap leather, so I will endeavor to uphold my mother's honor as soon as I can put together something presentable. LOL

Thanks again. You, Mr. Albert, and Mr. Rogers have been especially helpful.