The dreaded Swiss crust ring

[Clark Badgett]

I can only think the lead must have been alloyed and not at least plumber pure lead, which is 98.6% pure.
Or:
Perhaps the bore is not .54".

I've loaded bore sized or even larger balls in .36 (.360"), .40 (.398" bore), .50 (.08" oversize ball) and my .,69(.690"), all with at least .021" denim and the .32 and .40 with .0235" mattress ticking.
I do not understand how or why you could not load .005" undersized and a .021" patch, let alone a .015" patch. I just don't get it. Sorry - does not compute.

The plumbium was bought certified pure and before casting tested 5-6 and the bore gauged at exactly .540”. I’m a big stickler for keeping my lead types separate, if there’s any unknown lead it goes in my very well marked mystery metal pot and I never melt more than one kind at a time.

[Daryl]

 Brinel 5 is pure (I understand), 6 some alloy, not much at all, virtually pure.
USA Crimp-on Wheel weights were 9 to 11 and Canadian were 12/13 as I understand these. Battery lead, sold as pure
by some salvage outfits (no visible steel or copper with it, so "pure lead") even harder.

It's an even greater puzzle then, Clark.

[Herb]

Some of my results.  First target at 100 yards from rest.  I used an adjustable powder measure, so those charges were some heavier.

Second targets at 50 yards with flintlock shown below.

Third is a .54 Hawken I gave my nephew Rick.

Here I had a cleaning patch on the seater jag, so wiped the bore down as I seated the balls (.562 and .570).  Taylor bought this rifle as agent for his friend Ross "Hatchet Jack" ten yeas ago.  Ross just wrote me that he has now fired 15,000 shots through this rifle and it is still as accurate s when I shot it a couple of thousand shots.




pic upload

[doulos]

While shooting yesterday paid attention to the loading difficulty when switching between the new Goex FFg and some Swiss FFG.  There was definitely harder loading and a ring with Swiss. It was undeniable.  Two different caplocks were used. I also tried different lubes.  5-1 ratio Ballistol wet patches and Mink Oil.  Tried different patch thicknesses also. Did not notice as pronounced of a ring with Goex.  It was there but very slight.n I was using fairly large charges.  Most all were 100 grains. Just my observation. I had not shot Swiss in a while and didnt remember a crust ring like that.  But my memory…well you know.

[recurve]

all targets shot with no   wipe using TALLOW (mutton) as lube 
getz barrel 50yrds

2high then filled rear sight next 3 greenmtn barrel 100yrds bench

all others Hoyt barrels 50+54 (gain twist)



  above 2 targets sight in then moved sights to center shot


the tallow seems to keep fouling soft

[Marcruger]

Back to the original question, I have found Swiss to produce less fouling, but it dries harder.  Even with wet lubing.  Just my experience.   

[Daryl]

Still no personal experience with Swiss powders in a muzzleloader, but I have to comment on Herb's extreme spreads. They seem VERY extreme to me.
I haven't "done" extreme spread spread tests for a while, but in all calibres I did it, using GOEX powder, even back to the late 1970's and up to the 2010,
my spreads in all calibres from .32 to .69 were single digits.  Perhaps this is due to a lack of blow-by, or due to using tight enough combinations that make
the powder burn better/more completely?
I did notice Herb mentions using a .013" patch. My patches measure from .021/.0235" in the smaller calibres to .034" in the .69. This is with balls that are .008"
under bore size, on up to bore size in the .32, .36 and .69 and in the .40, .002" larger than bore size.  I used a 10 ounce denim in the .69, with the .690" balls.

[Bob Roller]

Be glad that black powder is still around to be bought at whatever price.I remember when DuPont quit making it and we were VERY glad to see a restart by GOEX.I bought my first pound of black powder from a pawn shop in Charleston WVa for $1.50 in 1951.I was 15.
The Swiss seems to have more "punch" than GOEX and I tried both at 500 meters in a long range rifle with a 530 grain lubricated bullet and 80 grains of both brands and supposedly the same granulation 3fg.The Swiss was potent and I had to lower the tang sight by .075 or 3 full turns on the 40 threads per inch adjustment screw.That test shows that the Swiss have a more potent formula for black powder.It also seems to leave a crust and I wonder if it burns at a higher heat range than GOEX? That is speculation but has anyone looked at it that has a way to measure the maximum heat of burning powder?  In Aoril of 1953 I met E.M.Farris and Bill Large on the same day and after seeing targets shot with Bill's barrels I was convinced that the "Bull's Eye" instead of its rear end was really possible.The barrels he "made" then were Buehmiller? that he modified the rifling and could plane it to octagon.Mr.Farris sold two brands of black powder,DuPont and Kings.
The King's was made in King's Mills,Ohio.King;s was dead but still selling off inventory and that Fall I went to Friendship with Mr.Farris and we
stopped there an loaded up his 1951 Pontiac with 6 and 1/4 and 25 pound steel drums of black powder and he sold most of it at the Fall Shoot.I am possibly one of the last people that knew some of the founders of the NMLRA in 1933 and will soon be 88 years old on 27 March
and THIS forum IMHO is the best venue to post on concerning black powder and the guns that require it and nothing else.I hope nobody went to sleep trying to read this.Big cold and snow here now and no reason to go outside.
Bob Roller
 

[Daryl]

John Buhmiller, gun and barrel maker of Kalispel Montana. I spoke with John in the spring of 1975, while visiting Les Bauska in his shop, same city. John had fallen and was injured so
was not entertaining guests. Had a nice conversation with him, though, bringing up my 'new' friend Lester H. Hawkes who used to work for John and was best friends with Bauska.
That was a long time ago.

[bigsmoke]

Funny this.  I have been shooting since the mid 60's and have never experienced this barrel ring problem.  Mostly used GOEX.  Saliva has always been an acceptable patch lube for me, except in freezing weather.
When I got started on the big bore thing, I discovered that with over 150 grain charges, the patches started to show signs of burning.  So, I decided it might be a good thing to use a shotgun size cushion wad between the patched ball and the powder charge.  When I did that, I used factory Wonder Lube patch.  Results were a patch that could be picked up and shot again.  Oh, by the way, I could shoot 20+ shots out of my 12 bore rifle with 200+ grain powder charges and never wipe the bore.  Last shot loaded as easily as the first one.
I guess the bottom line here is YMMV.  Just get the load worked out and enjoy the day.
John (Bigsmoke)

[TDM]

I love Swiss, it’s my favorite powder. But I have and use Goex and Schuetzen too. Agree that Swiss is more potent and burns cleaner. But I have had the hard ring problem, specifically in my .45 SMRs. Both will hard ring after 13-15 shots. Doesn’t seem to be a problem in my larger calibers.

[Dphariss]

A patch over the powder, same as used around the ball, seems to cure this. In limited testing.

[Dphariss]

I was shooting a 40 today, GM barrels, and had no issues with 62 gr of FFF Swiss. Will be doing more shooting later in the week maybe.

[recurve]

last friday (50 temp) I sighted in my hoyt .50 gain twist 38 inch barrel and fired 50+ shots with swiss 2 and 3 f 75-80 grns I never needed to wipe and got great groups.  I used mutton tallow and 10 oz denim  patch .490 ball    the 80 grouped best just over 11/4 inches at  100 bench rest  open sights



I also use 4f swiss in the pan

[recurve]

[hudson]

I believe Bill Knight covered the fouling problem here at one time. As I recall it is the higher burring temperature of Swiss that melts some of the fouling and causes the glaze. This I have proven to myself, Goex no problem Swiss yes. At one hundred yards Swiss has a very slight edge over Goex not worth the gain or cost for me.

[hanshi]

What little experience I've had with Swiss was with 3F in the .32.  It's been a while but I recall nothing out of the ordinary when using it.  With other powders such as Goex I've noticed the buildup of of a crust ring with no consistency as to barrel, load or number of shots.  It doesn't happen every time or if it does always happen I don't notice it perhaps due to it being soft.  I don't wipe during shooting and clean the gun when I get home.  I do usually run a wet then a dry patch down the bore prior to packing up for the day and often find at least some resistance from a fouling ring.  But it comes right out with the second (dry) patch.  I don't consider that as "cleaning" and it only takes a minute or so since it's a habit of mine.

[MuskratMike]

This "crud rung" must have something to do with humidity or atmospheric conditions. Now I have never used Swiss powder but have never experienced a crud ring developing in any of my guns regardless of caliber, number of shots fired without wiping or amount of powder used. I might be missing something here but anyone responding to his live out here in the Pacific NW?

[Daryl]

I think "crud" rings happen with "weak" combinations - thin patch or overly small balls.

[Dphariss]

This "crud rung" must have something to do with humidity or atmospheric conditions. Now I have never used Swiss powder but have never experienced a crud ring developing in any of my guns regardless of caliber, number of shots fired without wiping or amount of powder used. I might be missing something here but anyone responding to his live out here in the Pacific NW?

There are a host of variables. I have a 54 that I need to play around with more and try sone things. You would think that 62 gr in a 40 would cause issues. But no. But 66 of FFF swiss in 54 does. I gotta do more shooting and thinking on this. I have a 50 and  54 that have no issues.

[Daryl]

Interesting observations.
I've used 75gr. 3F in my .45 as well as 85gr. 2F in the same barrel, with LHV lube and my normal ball and patch combinations. The velocities for both of those loads were just over
2,200fps. This was done in a test of slippery lubes to get the same poi and accuracy as with water based lubes that produced a mere 1,800fps with 65gr. 3F.
No crud ring with those loads using GOEX.
No crud ring in my .69 with any of the loads tested using GOEX right up to 200gr. 2F. The lube used with THAT load and normal 165gr. hunting load, was Track's MinkOil.