3rd Model Brown Bess by Potts

[fundukj]

This is a late, private contract piece in untouched condition.  Great markings, some light surface corrosion on barrel.  It spent the last 50 years in a closet of an old-time collection.

[Dave Marsh]

I am a fan of the Bess however don't know much about them. What years would the 3rd model have been made? This one looks really in good shape.    

[bluenoser]

I am not particularly well versed in the various models of Brown Bess but, to me, that looks more like a commercial variation of the New Land Pattern Light Infantry Bess than a 3rd model.  They both have 39" barrels but, amongst other things, the butt profiles are significantly different.

[fundukj]

Among other differences, a New Land Service Musket would have barrel keys not pins like this one. 

[Blacksmoke]

Also, the double throated cock was not employed till post circa: 1810.  And light infantry had a .600' ( 20ga.) bore in place of .720"( 12ga.) for reg. infantry. These features according to my understanding.  Hugh Toenjes

[bluenoser]

True regarding barrel keys, and I believe the military pattern New Land Light Infantry would also have a scroll trigger guard and a rear sight.

Although I am not a student of the Brown Bess and have much to learn, a variety of models have passed through my hands over the past 50 years.  If I am not mistaken, private purchase muskets could have an odd assortment of features found on military pattern muskets.  I based my suggestion on the butt profile, which I had not previously seen on a Third Model Bess.  I would think this piece to be a private-purchase Bess having the stock profile of the New Land Pattern Light Infantry and features, such as barrel pins and possibly bore diameter, common to earlier military patterns.  As stated, I am far from an authority on the subject and could well be mistaken.  What follows is an honest question that is not intended to be argumentative.
Is there documented evidence of the military pattern Third Model Bess having this later style butt and when would it have been introduced?

[fundukj]

This private contract definitely doesn't have the same butt profile of the typical India Pattern.  The page below comes from "Red Coat and Brown Bess" by Anthony D. Darling.  It doesn't answer all of our questions, but it's a start.

[bluenoser]

Thank you.  I do not have the text and appreciate the opportunity to read the passage. If I am understanding correctly, it implies the Third Model/India Pattern was not produced with the simplified stock profile of the New Land Series.  It does seem to open the possibility that, in or after 1805, there might have been a supply of unused New Land Series stocks that could have been used in the assembly of private purchase muskets.  Consequently, my opinion stands unchanged.
Whatever the proper designation is, this is a fine specimen of a scarce model.

[Clark Badgett]

This private contract definitely doesn't have the same butt profile of the typical India Pattern.  The page below comes from "Red Coat and Brown Bess" by Anthony D. Darling.  It doesn't answer all of our questions, but it's a start.

There are much newer and more thorough works out now. DeWitt Bailey’s work come to mind.

[Clark Badgett]

I am not particularly well versed in the various models of Brown Bess but, to me, that looks more like a commercial variation of the New Land Pattern Light Infantry Bess than a 3rd model.  They both have 39" barrels but, amongst other things, the butt profiles are significantly different.

Its a commercial India pattern Type 2. The old 1st. 2nd, 3rd models designations went bye-bye some time ago. The New Land musket never really went into common production due to need.

[bluenoser]

Thanks Clark.  Not disputing the accuracy of your info, but could you provide your reference?  A quick internet search for "Brown Bess commercial India Pattern Type 2"  produced numerous examples with the earlier style butt, but only one example with the later simplified butt.  Interestingly, that example was also by Potts.  We all know how unreliable info found on the internet can be.
Two questions:
Is the India Pattern Type 2 a sealed ordinance pattern, or is it a commercial version subject to variation?
Are specimens of the I.P. Type 2 with the simplified butt by other makers also encountered?

[smart dog]

Hi,
As stated previously, this is a commercially made copy of the last pattern Brown Bess musket from probably at least the second decade of the 19th century. As a commercial product is differs from the government issued arms. The simple butt plate and stock were cost cutting measures taken by the contractor not some government issued spec.  WYC likely was some volunteer unit.  The barrel has no government marks so it was never issued by the government.  American militia units purchased quite a few privately made muskets from Britain early in the 19th century so it is even plausible that the gun was for an American militia unit.

dave

[Niall]

WYC....Something like Warwickshire or Worcestershire Yeoman  Cavalry, a volunteer/militia unit in the British army

[JV Puleo]

I doubt that...
What would a Yeomanry unit want with a musket? It's too new to have been a Volunteer musket as well as not being high enough quality. I think it's more likely to be an abbreviation for some commercial enterprise...

[Clark Badgett]

Thanks Clark.  Not disputing the accuracy of your info, but could you provide your reference?  A quick internet search for "Brown Bess commercial India Pattern Type 2"  produced numerous examples with the earlier style butt, but only one example with the later simplified butt.  Interestingly, that example was also by Potts.  We all know how unreliable info found on the internet can be.
Two questions:
Is the India Pattern Type 2 a sealed ordinance pattern, or is it a commercial version subject to variation?
Are specimens of the I.P. Type 2 with the simplified butt by other makers also encountered?

Howard Blackmore, Anthony Darling did great work in their days, but DeWitt Bailey carried it further and Eric Goldstein gave us pretty color pictures.