Please help identify - american military “carbine”?

[rich pierce]

Looking at Grinslade’s book on colonial fowlers, the maker of CB-6 and CB-7 seems to have customized the side plates to closely mirror the lock shape. I get the same impression here.

[DaveM]

I agree with JV, that I don’t really see anything british about the lock. I shared lock photos with a major dealer in early european arms in europe who has helped me in the past - he did not find this mark in his proof mark books. He estimated the lock to be of the 1700-1730 period. Maybe the barrel is the same? If I had to guess, I would say maybe the lock and barrel are french, but I really don’t know. The barrel is octagon for about 8 inches then transitions to round. A top flat (not sharp edged) continues to the front sight, but the top of barrel seems to be round in the short section from the front sight to muzzle. The lock and barrel could be american made but I kind of doubt that since the lock has a proof mark. Maybe from a french trade gun,or trade gun parts? I really don’t know. Likely the lock and barrel are older than the gun, as these would likely have been reused parts on this gun.

The nose cap almost has to have been made by the same person who made the cap on CB6 in grinslade. Some of the other CB fowlers in grinslade have similar unusual nose caps but without the distinctive design common on this gun and CB6. See comparison below.

I wish grinslade had included some additional dimensions. It does not come through in the photos but the first thing you notice when picking up the gun is that it is massive in the middle section. The breach of the barrel is 1.25 inches, and the stock from flat to flat is 1.77” in front of the lock and tapers to 2.10” just behind the lock. The wrist excluding the trigger guard is round at 1.58”. I was wondering if these beefy dimensions may be a clue to military stocking, but without similar dimensions on the other CB fowlers in grinslade it is hard to tell.

Another interesting feature is the trigger guard is not exactly straight. The casting with a turn may have been done to account for the really wide stock at the trigger? It looks like a couple of the other CB guns in grinslade  share this strange feature.

Does anyone know how the CB fowlers were orignally attributed to the massachusetts / rhode island area? The grinslade ones are unsgned but I assume signed ones are from here? I am not questioning the attribution, just curious if this style also could have been made in philadelphia or elsewhere.

[JV Puleo]

I suspect the Massachusetts/Rhode Island attribution is based on the assumption that club butts were more popular there than anywhere else except, perhaps, the Hudson Valley and those guns seem to be distinctive in their on right. In any case, I've had half a dozen of them all of which "came out of the woodwork" locally. (I'm in Rhode Island). I believe they were intended to shoot birds on the many salt marshes along the coast...literally "sitting ducks." The beefy stocks and heavy barrels would accommodate a large charge of powder and shot since it was preferable to get as many birds as you could with a single shot.

Two of my club buts came from junk shops in East Greenwich (which is right on Narragansett Bay)...they were so similar that there is a good possibility they were made by the same person. Another was really peculiar in that it had been made from a mixture of old British Land Pattern parts with a later import lock. It looked at first as if it had been converted but closer examination suggested it was made as percussion from old parts. I found that one also in Southern RI and the man I bought it from told me he'd gotten it from his 95-year old neighbor who could remember his father hunting with it. This was about 40 years ago so the numbers make sense if it was still in use around the 1880s. If that sounds strange, a good friend and very knowledgeable collector once told me that when he was at URI, in the late 40s, he met a man who was still hunting with a Colt Patterson revolving shotgun!

[DaveM]

Thanks to the folks who have reached out to me outside of this forum! 

I have found out that there are 2 or 3 additional known guns (other than this one and CB 6) with this same nose cap design in collections from this same maker (or same “makers” if there was maybe more than one maker in whatever town this was). One other known gun is rather plain without carving on the butt and another is elaborately decorated. These other guns also have bayonet lugs. Apparently none of the guns are signed. All appear to have relatively short barrels and not long fowler barrels.

The collectors who have these couple of other guns of this same nose cap design were told the guns appeared to be from the same maker and came from Connecticut. Again this was based on where they believed to orignally have showed up.

I guess this means we really have absolutely no idea where this mystery maker worked! They varied their style somewhat and worked with both french and british components.

I have permission to share these photos of one of these other guns from the same maker with the same  unique nose cap design. The nose cap on this gun was later soldered to the barrel and of course was pinned originally as it has the same cap underlug. This one has the bayonet lug under the barrel.

 

[rich pierce]

Thanks! There’s a gun with similar carving in Wester White’s book on early guns of NY state (I’m not suggesting it’s a NY state gun).  The one in Wes White’s book is a rifle-built smoothbore with a pegged-on cheekpiece that fell off.