Author Topic: Appalachian School of gun making  (Read 1395 times)

Offline T.C.Albert

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Appalachian School of gun making
« on: August 23, 2024, 10:24:46 AM »
To the extent that it’s known, what is the evolution of the Appalachian School of gun making?
 ( ie. southern mountain rifles) Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Tim A
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2024, 03:01:40 PM »
Not my area but I see the Appalachian school as a broad mix of local styles lumped together. Sort of like “Pennsylvania longrifles” would be. I think there are parallels in that over time in all areas, longrifles became slimmer, of smaller caliber, and moved toward deeply curved buttplates during the percussion era.
Andover, Vermont

Offline mbriggs

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2024, 05:40:23 PM »
Hi T. C.,

There two books published in the last five years that address your question.

C. Wayne Bryson of Weaverville, N.C. has published a new book "The Longrifles of the Blue Ridge" about rifles made in the Appalachian Mountains on the mountain longrifles made on the North Carolina side of the Tennessee state line.

   


In addition, Randal Pierce, who puts on the Knoxville KRA/CLA show has published a book titled "Longrifles of the Great Smokey Mountains" which mostly covers mountain longrifles made on the Tennessee side of the North Carolina state line.

Both are well researched and written and feature good photography. These are the best two sources I know of.

Thanks,

C. Michael Briggs


 


C. Michael Briggs

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2024, 06:35:13 PM »
Not to overstate the obvious but the earliest rifles all came from somewhere else. A look at which areas were settled first and by whom would be a good starting point.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Jacob_S_P

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2024, 08:44:26 PM »
Appalachian 'Mountain Rifles' covers a broad topic. WV and VA must be Included although people tens to go straight to TN and Western NC.
Everything in my region of SW VA was referred to as a 'Mountain Rifle' whether it met the definition of what we in the *know* refer to them as.
My typical vision of the popular definition is an iron rifle, leaner stock, smaller bore .45 and smaller, and either less artistic furniture or a complete lack of forend cap and buttplate. I think Hershel House did a great job hitting many features with the Foxfire (type) rifle. But there were a lot more finer brass 'Mountain Rifles' than many consider or realize.
My thoughts on them anyhow.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2024, 03:42:35 AM »
The Appalachian rifles consist of more than just "mountain rifles" and, in my opinion, not all rifles from that area should be lumped together.  When we see a finer, well-stocked rifle with some decoration, we know it wasn't made for the average man in Appalachia... and it is not a true mountain rifle.

To speak of the "evolution" of mountain rifles is somewhat of an oxymoron. What sets them apart as true mountain rifles is more the fact they did NOT evolve... or evolved at a much slower pace. The ongoing firearm changes seen in more developed areas, or even areas within Appalachia where some wealth existed, had minimal impact on true mountain rifles. They survived for many years in a basic form with iron [or mixed iron/brass] mounts and simple stocking, often only partially mounted in "poor boy" style. Their basic style continued for years, with later guns often mimicking earlier work.

The charm of mountain rifles, made in the poorest areas of rural America, is their functional simplicity with minimal attention to decoration or style changes/trends that occurred in other areas. There was no money available for anything other than a basic, functional tool, for many years. That is why we find so many mountain rifles unsigned and hard to date. To a large extent they resisted change, i.e. evolution, for much of the nineteenth century. You can argue the pockets of finer rifle production within the Appalachian region are also mountain rifles, such as the Bull rifles or perhaps Pleasant Wilson's work in southeastern Kentucky, but I would argue that, while from the area, they were not made under the adverse living conditions that true mountain rifles were, and therefore are not true mountain rifles... yet they are still Appalachian rifles.

Anybody want to guess the date of the mountain rifle by Green Cornett of Perry County, Kentucky, shown below?

Shelby Gallien
 

« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 11:07:54 PM by Tanselman »

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2024, 05:38:20 PM »


Anybody want to guess the date of the mountain rifle by Green Cornett of Perry County, Kentucky, shown below?

Shelby Gallien
 


My guess is 1905 although it could even be later than that.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2024, 06:40:17 PM »
My maternal grandfather was Clinton M.Taylor 1873-1972 and 99 years,11 months and 11 days when he passed away and he was glad to see my interest in muzzle loading rifles and said half stock rifles were in use even after the turn of the century.He owned a general store and sold caps and black powder and would open a can of percussion caps and sell a few ounces of black powder.Most Appalachian people were well aware of repeating rifles and single shot rifles ranging from the Trapdoor Springfield in 50-70 to the 22 caliber guns from many makers but the muzzle loader was the squirrel and deer killer."Seasons"were unknown and game was killed as needed.I don't know about any "schools" here when it came to gun making and there was an assortment and not likely any were finely made like the ones we see made now with the advantages of electricity,good lighting and tools of every description and machine made barrels.I made my first serious muzzle loader with a 58 caliber barrel made by Bill Large,the first one after his shop was finished and Grandpa Taylor wondered about the big bore in a rifle but liked the walnut half stocked,silver trimmed rifle I made with it and it delivered accuracy needed to win us a turkey in 1958 at Friendship.PROBABLY most "gunsmiths"after 1900 were repairing breech loaders and cared little about any muzzle loader no matter how finely made it was.I don't recall Grandpa Taylor ever mentioning a fullstock rifle and NO flintlocks ever.
Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2024, 09:40:51 PM »


Anybody want to guess the date of the mountain rifle by Green Cornett of Perry County, Kentucky, shown below?

Shelby Gallien
 


My guess is 1905 although it could even be later than that.
[/quote
Looks like one Len meadows made for me in 1965 in profile but mine was a flintlock and as far as I know it's still around.
Bob Roller

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2024, 10:59:06 PM »
Green Cornett was born in 1860 or 1861 in Perry Co., Kentucky, in the state's far southeastern Appalachian hill country. He married in 1886. No indenture of apprenticeship is known, but he would have started making guns in the early 1880s. No known record exists of Cornett being a gunsmith, always a "farmer" in census data, but two signed rifles survive. Both are stocked in walnut and iron mounted like the pictured rifle. The rifle pictured was the last one to come out of his family in Kentucky from a direct descendant. The descendant documented it as Green Cornett's work, despite not being signed. An identical petite rifle, of similar size and weight, carries his signature. Cornett died in 1927 with no gunsmithing tools listed in his estate inventory, suggesting he abandoned gunmaking years before he died.

I originally thought the pictured rifle dated to about 1885, but after seeing an earlier Cornett Green rifle of larger stature, I believe the two similar small-sized rifles [including this one] were probably made for his children, since at least one stayed in the family for many years. Based on his marriage date of 1886, I now think the illustrated rifle was made about 1895 to 1900.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: August 25, 2024, 06:02:14 PM by Tanselman »

Offline 5judge

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2024, 12:19:29 AM »
When I first came through western North Carolina in 1955, locals called them collectively "hog rifles".

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2024, 04:26:22 AM »
I think the term "hog rifle" is a somewhat later term applied to mountain rifles... as well as other low-cost guns. After cartridge guns took over, there was little perceived value in most old muzzle loaders. After the turn of the century, many were relegated to the barn or shed for periodic use when livestock had to be slaughtered. In Appalachian areas it was probably more so for hogs since they were such an important part of hill people's diets. Hogs could survive in the woods off plants and roots better than most domesticated animals, so in early years they were a staple on hill country scratch-farms... even if they were only around part time and roaming the woods at other times. Hogs also provided an important service to hill people by stomping to death and eating poisonous snakes when small farms were first opened up... their hides were so thick/tough that snake bites couldn't get through to vital areas. The term "hog rifle" was also common in southeastern Kentucky's Appalachian region where I collect, where it signified a low grade or obsolete gun of little value that was no longer used for hunting, but rather demoted to do "clean up" chores out in the barn yard.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: August 25, 2024, 06:04:15 PM by Tanselman »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2024, 05:17:24 AM »
Can't help hit recall "John Shell" of Kentucky, as written up with photo by Roberts in "ThecMuzzleliading Cap Lock Rifle" stating s note by Daniel Boone. " yet rifles are plain John. Their only beauty is in their great.power".
John apparently made rifles in .60 cal.
Daryl

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Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2024, 05:32:40 AM »
Well I'm blaming camera angle for throwing my 1905 guess off by 5 years. Yep camera angle  ;D ;D
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2024, 06:54:15 AM »
A needed comment on the references to Kentucky's John Shell in both Roberts' as well as Dillon's books. Those references were pure fantasy, made up later to "sell" Shell as the oldest living man in booths at county fairs during the 1915-1920 era... which made the promoters substantial money... but Shell was cheated out of most of his share.

Shell was born in 1821 or 1822 in Tennessee based on census data, spent his working life in a rural area of Harlan County, Kentucky, and died in Leslie County [originally part of Harlan County] in 1922. He never knew Daniel Boone, never hunted with him, and never made a flintlock rifle. An accurate account of his life, and the late-in-life dishonest promotion of him by two unscrupulous men as the world's oldest living man, is detailed in a three-part article in "Muzzle Blasts" magazine in the November and December issues of 2016 and January issue of 2017... in case anyone is interested in his real life's story.

His guns were roughly made, iron mounted, with hammer marks on the barrels... which he made himself at his forge under an overhang on the hillside behind his house. The reported large .60 caliber bores of his guns is also fabricated. I have examined three rifles made by Kentucky's John Shell, two signed and the third his personal gun which still exists, and bores ran from about .32 to .36 caliber. Shell signed his guns as "J S" or "J Shell" in somewhat uneven block letters. He may have made a rifle with a larger bore at some time in his life, but his known guns had the typical smaller calibers that were the norm for later percussion guns. Bore sizes became exaggerated when early collectors assumed a couple plainer rifles by Pennsylvania's John Shell were made by Kentucky's John Shell.

A "kinda funny" side note to John Shell's workmanship involved a signed rifle that I now own. Jerry Noble found the rifle many years ago, a rough walnut stock with a hammered barrel and nailed-on iron mountings, and it's only saving grace was its extended barrel inscription that read: "No * 35 * 1870 * J S * $16." Jerry tried to sell me the gun for many years [obviously no one else wanted it], but I always refused to buy it, telling him it was the ugliest gun I'd ever seen. Then a couple years ago when Jerry started moving his collection, it was offered to me again. By that time I had researched and published the lengthy article on Shell in "Muzzle Blasts" magazine and realized, despite its appearance, it represented the true no-frills back-woods mountain rifle from Kentucky's hill country... and it's saving grace was the fascinating signature line with the gun's price and date. But Jerry still wanted a chunk for the gun, so in response, I told him what I thought the gun was really worth [quite a bit less], and a half-hour later he said "It's yours."

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: August 30, 2024, 12:15:30 AM by Tanselman »

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2024, 04:36:17 PM »
How can I get a copy of Wayne Brysons book?
Thanks
Tim A
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2024, 05:17:02 PM »
How can I get a copy of Wayne Brysons book?
Thanks
Tim A
Appears that you have to call Wayne to inquire about his second printing, but in 2022 he quickly sold out according to this forum.

Books are $40.00 and may be purchased directly from Wayne at (828) 712-2701

I'd not be surprised if they went up. I want a copy as well. I won't call him on a Sunday. If anyone is aware of an actual second printing existing or planned, let us know. Thanks

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71385.0
« Last Edit: August 25, 2024, 05:24:59 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2024, 07:57:11 PM »
My maternal grandfather who I mentioned yesterday also called them "hog rifles"and thought my 58 caliber would make a good one.
Why are these guns associated with "schools"? I like the long rifles and my favorites are Southern,simple as a stick of wood styles and wish I could have kept the one Len Meadows made for me.It was a sharp contrast to my semi military Whitworth 451 long range muzzle loader.
Bob Roller

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2024, 10:06:10 AM »
 I guess I’m just wondering what the possible evolutionary steps were that led up to something like a Bean rifle. They and rifles like them have such iconic styling that I’d assume it developed rather than just appeared. And if they did just appear, what might be the first one?
Tim A
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Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2024, 02:04:11 PM »
Someone really knowledgeable needs to write a book maybe called "Origin Of The Buggy Whip Rifle Of The Appalachian Mountains" of course I'm kidding well sorta. I think that when building a rifle sometimes a feature your working on talks to you as you're building it. Great carving designs are sometimes done this way or worked out in advance but listening closely just the same. Pointy butt rifles with skinny bores might have happened similarly or how about the now famous Woodbury School guns most of us admire so much? Feedback from observers reinforce what the builder instinctively thought looked good and repeated the process. I have a rifle by Jack Duprey that sits on my table at gun shows made famous by the Bob Mcbride Black Powder TV video. But there's something about that gun that's unique and it's the one that everyone wants to pick up and look at even when it's right next to a Hershel House or Allen Martin or Chuck Edwards or David Dodds or even the famous original Soddy Daisy rifle it was bench copied from.

I'm suggesting the Appalachian School might have started with one rifle (probably not though) that more or less happened by accident but got a lot of attention and provided positive feedback to the builder. The builder was no dummy and made more of them. Guess which rifle I plan to use for inspiration going forward?  ;)




Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2024, 06:11:01 PM »
 I’ve always believed the apprentice system that was in place for literally centuries often spawned many of the design characteristics that for one reason or another became iconic. The natural human tendency to personalize ones work, and reproduce what is currently popular probably led budding young gunsmiths to use popular features with just enough of their own spin on it to be readily recognized by customers of the times. Obviously in some cases these subtle changes are lost on many of us today making many unsigned guns a total mystery to most of us.

Hungry Horse

Offline AZshot

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Re: Appalachian School of gun making
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2024, 12:27:10 AM »
I think the Appalachian School rifles (AKA Southern Mountain Rifles, Hog Rifles, etc) are distinctive for several reasons.
1. The NC mountain area was settled "last" in the original 13 Colonies.  But once started it was settled relatively quickly, as frontiers were. Next, after the Revolution, men were given land for their service.  A generation or two later a few roads were cut into the region, centered say around Hendersonville, NC. The hog road, long before a railroad. Some of those gunsmiths schooled in SC or in the NC piedmont.  Other's came down the Great Wagon Road into the Yadkin valley, then moved quickly west into the mountains, bringing their skills with them.
2. The North Eastern TN region was settled somewhat before that, bringing in gunsmiths schooled up north in the Shenendoah Valley and as far as PA I suppose. 

What that means is they didn't have 5 generations of making German style rifles, militia contract rifles, etc to evolve into a Long Rifle.  It was a mixture of people from different schools coming in a relatively short period, but still somewhat isolated from each other. They CAME with long rifles.  Then altered and adapted those designs some.

Those two regions (TN and NC) did not really mix much because of the difficulty of travel over the range.  Yes, people did move over towards TN mostly, but sometimes the other way.  But it was not like in the flatlands of the Atlantic colonies, with easy roads and trails and even railroads everywhere by 1855.  In 1855, Western NC was pretty remote.  In 1799 it was VERY remote.  During the Civil War, the TN side of the range was Unionist, the NC side was a mix of Confederate and Unionist counties.  Travel was extremely dangerous and hate and discontent was remembered for a generation or two after the war.  So for 2-3 generations gunmaking remained the same, and didn't evolve as quickly as elsewhere.

Another reason the Appalachian rifles are distinctive was their purpose (hunting small game, shooting matchs) was different from wealthy planters down in the Piedmont, who often had the money to commission a fancy rifle with brass on it to show off to neighbors.  I seriously doubt most of the Piedmont rifles were being used daily for hunting.  THey were hung on the mantle or used occasionally.  People in the Piedmont rode their horses or buggies to one of the hundreds of towns and bought food stuff in drygoods stores, butcher shops etc.  People in Western NC had to forage, hunt, look out for bears or Indians, for at least 1 generation longer.  It was a frontier, which slowly became tamer, then the Civil War happened. 

Another reason is the relative scarsity of brass raw materials.  Iron ore was common, every frontier settlement had a blacksmith.  It's not a stretch for a blacksmith to become a gunsmith - many did. 

The Appalachian School did "transition" from several regions and directions.  Some coming down from PA/German influence, some from Virgina, some coming up from Charlestown, some over from Catawba.  A father would make a style he had learned, like Matthew Gillespie or Peden, and some aspects would be handed down to their sons. Like the forward facing spur on the hand rail.   But 1 range over, another family was making a slightly different style.  Further over in Tennessee, they started making a loop ring at the end of the hand rail.  40 years later, TN rifles were still putting that loop there.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2024, 03:22:17 PM by AZshot »