double barrel maker?

[Ezra]

Do any of the barrel makers (Getz, Rice, Hoyt, Rayl, etc) make double barreled rifled muzzle loading barrels?  Say about 28" in about .60 to .66.  What is being considered is TRS 565.

Could an existent black powder double barrel smooth bore be sleeved with rifling and be operated safely?


Ez

[Pete Allan]

Rayl makes double shotgun barrels. I would check with him. You would have to regulate it befor you finish it though -- good luck on the project.

[woodsrunner]

Ed made a set of 16ga barrels for my David Dodds double, and these are perfect in every respect. Regulation is absolutely perfect. He is going to build me a set of 60cal barrels this year. I highly recommend Ed Rayl's work!

[westbj2]

Esra,
If you decide to use a set of antique barrels and sleeve them, try to find barrels with a name and street address on the rib. This will eliminate the clunky and heavy barrels from the many 'hardware' guns out there.  Be sure to get the matching standing breech/tang as well.
Sleeving is pretty simple.  Polish the inside of the old barrels to remove crud and surface rust scale.
Turn the rifle barrel blanks on a lathe so that they are a nice slip fit into the shotgun barrels. Exterior finish on these is not of great concern.  Leave the rifled sleeves about an inch or 1 1/2" longer than the distance from the muzzle to breech plugs on the shotgun barrels. 
Slip the barrels in place and for the time being solder only about the last inch at the muzzles.  Put a witness mark on the end of the protuding rifle barrels and take the gun out and shoot it.   You can reheat the barrels rotating the sleeve(s) in order to correct for regulation.  Once you have the barrels shooting together, put on the final witness marks and re-solder the entire length of the barrels.  Trim off the excess length of the rifled sleeves.
Jim Westberg

[beleg2]

Hi, sorry for jumping in.......

Jim,
It looks pretty simple.
I like your way of doing it!!!!!
Have you made it this way?
What about leaving 3" free in order to help regulation if rotating them is not enough?

Thank you very much

[Levy]

I like Jim's description of the process, but see a couple of areas where someone inept like me could go way wrong.  How do you know how the sleeves fit up against the existing breech faces?  Couldn't you end up with a ledge or lip where the sleeves and the breeches meet that would trap fouling?  Isn't there some danger in everything coming unsoldered with soft-soldered barrels?  If you're soldering the sleeves for their full length, then what keeps all of the old solder joints from coming undone?  Sorry, the answers may be obvious to those who have more knowledge than I.

James Levy

[Dave K]

Jim, how thick are these sleeves? Do you bore the original barrels first to true them and clean them up? I have a concern on weight, becoming a problem. I certainly like the idea though as there is nothing in my mind that beats the appearance of Twist or Damascus barrels.

[Ezra]

I spoke with Mr. Rayl this morning.  He will make a double barrel rifle setup for flintlock like I described.  I just need to save my pennies a little longer...

Meanwhile, I did find a nice English walnut stock blank though (3 3/4" thick) which I am purchasing.   

Ez

[westbj2]

Beleg,
I have done a number of these.  There is really no reason to leave the liners 3" or so too long, although it would not make any difference.  All you need is enough to get hold of to withdraw the barrels when the muzzle solder lets loose so that you can reposition one or both.
Levy,
"Couldn't you end up with a ledge or lip where the sleeves and the breeches meet that would trap fouling?  Isn't there some danger in everything coming unsoldered with soft-soldered barrels?"  There are a number of ways to determine the breech faces so that you can make the end of the barrels match up.  Simplest is to remove one of the plugs and have a look.   When soldering use a low temp solder, Brownells sells one that melts around 225 degrees.  It would be a good idea to wire the barrels together with shims on the ribs just to be safe.
A number of commercial epoxe adhesives are available, suppose you could use that as well.   Remember,  you have a bearing surface that is the equivalent of about 2 1/2"  (3.14 X radius squared) and the full length of the barrels.  With even 50% contact they would never come out.
Dave,
If I recall, the last set I did were .45 cal in a 16ga.   50 cal in a 12ga  also works fine.   You will need a steadyrest on the lathe or take very light cuts because the wall thickness of the sleeves will only be about .100" or less.  The reason for initial polish/cleaning of the bores is to achieve a surface that the solder can adhere to.  Weight.....they fell like a regular double rifle maybe a bit heavier but nothing like the Kodiak clunks.
Jim

[Dave K]

So sorry, but I missed the rifled part of this thread and was thinking shotgun barrels that continued to be shotgun barrels.

[Robby]

Ezra, When I made my side by side double, I called Ed Rayl and explained what I was doing. The barrels were about as good, and matched, as any reasonable person could expect. I keep telling myself, I've already done that, but, the urge to do another tugs at me still. Yours looks like a fun project,#565, good luck with it, keep us posted!
Robby

[beleg2]

Thanks Jim,
I have a 14ga set of Belgium barrels for the project.
I have thought to use them as a long monoblock (as in breechloading shotguns) but I much preffer your option.
I have been reading again your post:
If I underestand it, the breechplug is fixed to the original barrels not to the sleeeve?
Thanks
Martin

[beleg2]

TTT,

Jim,.
I have been reading again your post:
If I underestand it, the breechplug is fixed to the original barrels not to the sleeeve?
Thanks
Martin

[westbj2]

Beleg,
Yes the original plugs stay in place, the sleeves rest against their face.
Jim

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I must be missing something Jim...how does rotating the barrels inside the damascus tubes regulate them?

[Ezra]

I must be missing something Kim...how does rotating the barrels inside the damascus tubes regulate them?

It would seem to assume that something was not perfectly aligned.  As you rotate, point of impact changes.  That's as far as my thinking goes.


Ez

[ironwolf]

  I would think the bore is at an angle to the OD of the new liner.  Thus rotation would efectually tweak the runout.
K

[Lloyd]

I have never made a muzzleloading rifle out of a double shotgun, but I have made a couple of double rifles out of break open double shotguns.
I made one in .444 Marlin and another in 45/70. 

I machined down the outside of the barrels to fit in the chamber as would a shot shell.  This, I soft soldered in place.

The muzzle, I cut down so a 1911 barrel bushing would fit on it pretty tight.
The 1911 barrel bushing is effectively an excentric (and fits in the bore of a 12 guage without much alteration).   You can then regulate the point of impact and point of aim to whatever distance you choose.  Then, simply cut off the excess that sticks out of the muzzle of the shotgun tubes and re-crown the barrels...  Works as slick as owl @#$%/!!....


I think by using the same idea, and machining a couple of excentrics that fit over the barrels like the barrel bushings, you could regulate a set of muzzleloader barrels into a set of shotgun barrels. 

Oh, yes, I used a drop of epoxy to hold the bushings in place to regulate, then I soft soldered them into place once they were regulated.