Author Topic: Making a Rev War Elliot carbine  (Read 678 times)

Offline smart dog

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Making a Rev War Elliot carbine
« on: October 20, 2024, 04:59:31 AM »
Hi,
There was not a lot of cavalry action during our War for Independence on either side.  The American army had very few mounted troops. Despite some special combined loyalist and British units like Tarleton's British Legion, only 2 British mounted units served in the war, the 16th and 17th light dragoons.  Several historians believe the 16th was armed with pattern 1776 Royal Forester's carbines and the 17th with the pattern 1773 Elliot carbine. Both were very similar with the main difference being the Royal Forester's carbine had a more expensive flat faced lock whereas the Elliot mounted a typical round-faced carbine lock.  My shop is tasked with making a carbine for a recreated unit of 17th light dragoons.  The problem is that nobody has a clear idea of what the pattern 1773 Elliot carbine looked like in detail and one prominent author doesn't believe any Elliots were ever issued to British troops serving in America. Nonetheless, there are several surviving Elliot carbines with purported Rev War provenance but they all show great variation in details and several of them may have been altered during their service life.  We were asked to build a carbine representing one used early in the war (1776-1778).  My shop works closely with the collections at Fort Ticonderoga so our first job was to visit the Pell Research Center at Fort Ti and examine any examples in their collection.  Our research at Fort Ti and other collections convinced us that the pattern 1773 Elliot was issued and present in America.  However, none of the surviving examples of which we know shows unambiguous features indicating use during the early part of the war. Most have locks and other details that could only be produced late in the war or even after the Rev War.  We are using a stock and components made by the Rifle Shoppe, however, they represent Elliot carbines from the late 18th century or early 19th.  For example, the marking's on the lock plate were clearly stamped like later India pattern Brown Besses.  The marks on a real pattern 1773 lock plate from an early Rev War carbine would be engraved.   So there is much remedial work to do with the parts set.  Anyway, here is the beginning of the project showing Maria inletting the barrel lugs.









We already built the lock and fitted the barrel. As usual, we strengthened the barrel channel with a varnish thin coat of AcraGlas.  The ramrod hole in the fore stock was routed from the bottom of the barrel channel so we glued in a strip of wood to cover the slot and then applied the AcraGlas. Inletting the barrel tang was a nightmare because TRS cuts the apron around the tang.  What happens it when you stab downward to cut in the side of the tang mortise, the outside of the apron cracks away because it has little wood to support it.  I wish TRS simply would not cut the apron.  Leave the excess wood in place and let the maker cut the apron. It would not be a problem if the wood was English walnut or maple but the black walnut used by TRS just does not have the density or strength. 



The lock plate is in and the we made the sideplate.  The one included in the parts set is copied from the Royal Forester's carbine and is found on later Elliot carbines.  However, early Rev War carbines may have had scaled down pattern 1769 short land musket sideplates. So we made one from sheet brass.





It is not simple because it also has to be able to attach the side sling bar.




Here is the side plate provided by TRS and it is copied from the Royal Forester's carbine.  Some late 18th century Elliot carbines used the side plate as well but it is unclear what the early guns used other than one example with a short and pattern musket side plate. 




The Elliot has an effective way to prevent the ramrod from sliding out while bouncing around on horse back.  The swelled portion behind the tip has a groove, which catches the end of a groove in the nose cap. The ramrod catches the lip of the nose cap and is secured in the stock until needed.

 




More to come,

dave
« Last Edit: October 20, 2024, 02:23:47 PM by smart dog »
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Offline flatsguide

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Re: Making a Rev War Elliot carbine
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2024, 03:45:23 PM »
That was an interesting read Dave, thank you. If I recall correctly you mentioned before that you ‘glassed’ the barrel channel for strength. Years ago, around 1972 Ron Long helped me build my first and only muzzle loader (until the Chamber’s English sporting rifle that I’m finishing up now). He advised me to ‘glass’ from the breech to just past the first lug and not slot that lug just pin it. He found that method gave the best accuracy. The way you and Maria are doing it would suggest that it would definitely add strength ( and accuracy ) to a section of the stock that could use it. My question is do you add a small amount of flock or short strand fibers to your mix to strengthen the resin?
Thanks Richard

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a Rev War Elliot carbine
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2024, 06:23:57 PM »
Hi Richard,
Thanks for looking.  Yes, I add a little flock to the mix, which adds strength and bulk.  However, not much because the epoxy has to be runny enough to flow into tight places. I discovered how valuable the AcraGlas coat was when making a swivel breech rifle using David Price's barreled action.  His barrels are soldered together along the bottom so the wood fore stocks are separate panels held on by small diameter cross bolts drilled through the joint between the barrels. The panels have a "V" rib of wood on the inside that fits down into the "V" shaped recess formed by the two octagon barrels joined together.  That "V" rib is paper thin on the panel that has the groove for the ramrod. I made 2 of those panels and they both broke when I installed them. I decided to try a coat of AcraGlas on the insides. I tested some thin strips of maple some painted with AcraGlas and others not and found the coated strips increased the strength 3 to 10 fold, the variance due to natural variations in the wood. I coated the ramrod panel and had no issues with it breaking. That sold me on the idea and I coat every barrel channel unless the owner asks me not to do it.  I find it particularly valuable to protect guns for reenactors because they are fighting the same battles over and over and over.  One good friend said he has been reenacting in a Rev War unit for 40 years, which is a long time for fighting an 8-year long war.

dave 
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a Rev War Elliot carbine
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2024, 02:21:48 AM »
Hi,
More work done.  The lock is in and functioning properly.



All of the cast in markings on the lock plate have to be removed and correct engraved marks added.  The TRS lock has markings from the carbine pattern for 1799 and appropriate for wars against Napoleon not the American War for Independence.  I also inlet the trigger plate and installed the tang bolt.



Note the slot in the plate is offset to the right bringing the trigger bar closer to the lock plate.  The partial machine mortise was a little off center but not enough to really matter.

I inlet the ramrod pipes.  They went in nicely and the tang of the rear pipe just needs to be filed flush with the stock.   





Normally, installing ramrod pipes is a trivial task but not on the Elliot and Royal Forester's carbines.  The steel ramrod has a swell and cannelure (groove) that catches behind a lip on the front of the nose cap. Here is a photo of an original showing the ramrod and groove. The purpose was to make sure the ramrod did not fall out while the dragoon was bouncing along on horse back. 



The TRS stock had a machined ramrod channel way too shallow for that system to work.  The web of wood was too thick to allow the rod to butt up under the nose cap. I had to deepen it a lot.  That presented me with a problem. I drilled the forward barrel pin hole nicely in the forward lug but not realizing how much deeper the ramrod groove had to go to make the catch system work. When I deepened the groove properly there was too little wood under the forward barrel pin to give it much strength. So I installed a new barrel lug and filled the hole I drilled. It will disappear when I am done. Then I drilled a new barrel pin hole higher up in the stock. I discovered that the position of all of the pipes effects how securely the locking mechanism works.  It is not just a function of the front trumpet pipe.  Every pipe has to work together to force the cannelure into the lip of the nose cap.  It was very fiddley and required multiple adjustments in the depth of the pipes to get right, but I did.
 


More to come.

dave
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Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Making a Rev War Elliot carbine
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2024, 06:01:57 PM »
I think Maria has graduated to Professional Gunsmith!  I recall her first efforts- she was good then, great now.

The RR catch is great, may incorporate that in my next effort.  Thanks for showing it.
Craig Wilcox
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