Making a Rev War Elliot carbine

[smart dog]

Hi,
There was not a lot of cavalry action during our War for Independence on either side.  The American army had very few mounted troops. Despite some special combined loyalist and British units like Tarleton's British Legion, only 2 British mounted units served in the war, the 16th and 17th light dragoons.  Several historians believe the 16th was armed with pattern 1776 Royal Forester's carbines and the 17th with the pattern 1773 Elliot carbine. Both were very similar with the main difference being the Royal Forester's carbine had a more expensive flat faced lock whereas the Elliot mounted a typical round-faced carbine lock.  My shop is tasked with making a carbine for a recreated unit of 17th light dragoons.  The problem is that nobody has a clear idea of what the pattern 1773 Elliot carbine looked like in detail and one prominent author doesn't believe any Elliots were ever issued to British troops serving in America. Nonetheless, there are several surviving Elliot carbines with purported Rev War provenance but they all show great variation in details and several of them may have been altered during their service life.  We were asked to build a carbine representing one used early in the war (1776-1778).  My shop works closely with the collections at Fort Ticonderoga so our first job was to visit the Pell Research Center at Fort Ti and examine any examples in their collection.  Our research at Fort Ti and other collections convinced us that the pattern 1773 Elliot was issued and present in America.  However, none of the surviving examples of which we know shows unambiguous features indicating use during the early part of the war. Most have locks and other details that could only be produced late in the war or even after the Rev War.  We are using a stock and components made by the Rifle Shoppe, however, they represent Elliot carbines from the late 18th century or early 19th.  For example, the marking's on the lock plate were clearly stamped like later India pattern Brown Besses.  The marks on a real pattern 1773 lock plate from an early Rev War carbine would be engraved.   So there is much remedial work to do with the parts set.  Anyway, here is the beginning of the project showing Maria inletting the barrel lugs.









We already built the lock and fitted the barrel. As usual, we strengthened the barrel channel with a varnish thin coat of AcraGlas.  The ramrod hole in the fore stock was routed from the bottom of the barrel channel so we glued in a strip of wood to cover the slot and then applied the AcraGlas. Inletting the barrel tang was a nightmare because TRS cuts the apron around the tang.  What happens it when you stab downward to cut in the side of the tang mortise, the outside of the apron cracks away because it has little wood to support it.  I wish TRS simply would not cut the apron.  Leave the excess wood in place and let the maker cut the apron. It would not be a problem if the wood was English walnut or maple but the black walnut used by TRS just does not have the density or strength. 



The lock plate is in and the we made the sideplate.  The one included in the parts set is copied from the Royal Forester's carbine and is found on later Elliot carbines.  However, early Rev War carbines may have had scaled down pattern 1769 short land musket sideplates. So we made one from sheet brass.





It is not simple because it also has to be able to attach the side sling bar.




Here is the side plate provided by TRS and it is copied from the Royal Forester's carbine.  Some late 18th century Elliot carbines used the side plate as well but it is unclear what the early guns used other than one example with a short and pattern musket side plate. 




The Elliot has an effective way to prevent the ramrod from sliding out while bouncing around on horse back.  The swelled portion behind the tip has a groove, which catches the end of a groove in the nose cap. The ramrod catches the lip of the nose cap and is secured in the stock until needed.

 




More to come,

dave

[flatsguide]

That was an interesting read Dave, thank you. If I recall correctly you mentioned before that you ‘glassed’ the barrel channel for strength. Years ago, around 1972 Ron Long helped me build my first and only muzzle loader (until the Chamber’s English sporting rifle that I’m finishing up now). He advised me to ‘glass’ from the breech to just past the first lug and not slot that lug just pin it. He found that method gave the best accuracy. The way you and Maria are doing it would suggest that it would definitely add strength ( and accuracy ) to a section of the stock that could use it. My question is do you add a small amount of flock or short strand fibers to your mix to strengthen the resin?
Thanks Richard

[smart dog]

Hi Richard,
Thanks for looking.  Yes, I add a little flock to the mix, which adds strength and bulk.  However, not much because the epoxy has to be runny enough to flow into tight places. I discovered how valuable the AcraGlas coat was when making a swivel breech rifle using David Price's barreled action.  His barrels are soldered together along the bottom so the wood fore stocks are separate panels held on by small diameter cross bolts drilled through the joint between the barrels. The panels have a "V" rib of wood on the inside that fits down into the "V" shaped recess formed by the two octagon barrels joined together.  That "V" rib is paper thin on the panel that has the groove for the ramrod. I made 2 of those panels and they both broke when I installed them. I decided to try a coat of AcraGlas on the insides. I tested some thin strips of maple some painted with AcraGlas and others not and found the coated strips increased the strength 3 to 10 fold, the variance due to natural variations in the wood. I coated the ramrod panel and had no issues with it breaking. That sold me on the idea and I coat every barrel channel unless the owner asks me not to do it.  I find it particularly valuable to protect guns for reenactors because they are fighting the same battles over and over and over.  One good friend said he has been reenacting in a Rev War unit for 40 years, which is a long time for fighting an 8-year long war.

dave 

[smart dog]

Hi,
More work done.  The lock is in and functioning properly.



All of the cast in markings on the lock plate have to be removed and correct engraved marks added.  The TRS lock has markings from the carbine pattern for 1799 and appropriate for wars against Napoleon not the American War for Independence.  I also inlet the trigger plate and installed the tang bolt.



Note the slot in the plate is offset to the right bringing the trigger bar closer to the lock plate.  The partial machine mortise was a little off center but not enough to really matter.

I inlet the ramrod pipes.  They went in nicely and the tang of the rear pipe just needs to be filed flush with the stock.   





Normally, installing ramrod pipes is a trivial task but not on the Elliot and Royal Forester's carbines.  The steel ramrod has a swell and cannelure (groove) that catches behind a lip on the front of the nose cap. Here is a photo of an original showing the ramrod and groove. The purpose was to make sure the ramrod did not fall out while the dragoon was bouncing along on horse back. 



The TRS stock had a machined ramrod channel way too shallow for that system to work.  The web of wood was too thick to allow the rod to butt up under the nose cap. I had to deepen it a lot.  That presented me with a problem. I drilled the forward barrel pin hole nicely in the forward lug but not realizing how much deeper the ramrod groove had to go to make the catch system work. When I deepened the groove properly there was too little wood under the forward barrel pin to give it much strength. So I installed a new barrel lug and filled the hole I drilled. It will disappear when I am done. Then I drilled a new barrel pin hole higher up in the stock. I discovered that the position of all of the pipes effects how securely the locking mechanism works.  It is not just a function of the front trumpet pipe.  Every pipe has to work together to force the cannelure into the lip of the nose cap.  It was very fiddley and required multiple adjustments in the depth of the pipes to get right, but I did.
 


More to come.

dave

[Craig Wilcox]

I think Maria has graduated to Professional Gunsmith!  I recall her first efforts- she was good then, great now.

The RR catch is great, may incorporate that in my next effort.  Thanks for showing it.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I am getting close to the home stretch for this gun.  The butt plate is on and fits nicely.  You can see a bit of the rough stock profiling near the toe of the plate.  It will be fine.







There is no lug under the tang for a cross pin on the plate so I am debating about just drilling and mounting a pin for looks or attaching a lug.  The brass is quite thick and the tang is rigid so it doesn't need a cross pin to hold it down fast to the stock.  I'll decide a bit later.

I installed the trigger and pinned it.  I have to change the shape of the trigger a bit because the originals do not have the big curl on the bottom. It seems TRS just includes a Brown Bess trigger in the parts set, which is not correct.  I also inlet the trigger guard.  It is quite thick and needed annealing to eliminate resistance to bending to the stock. It came out well.








It is really important to have the trigger guard set down firmly against the trigger plate.  No gaps between them.
I also began some final shaping of the stock.  Here is where I am.






I am waiting on drilling the lock bolts and inletting the side plate until after this weekend.  I have an opportunity to examine an original pattern 1773 from the Rev War and want to see it before committing to the side plate we made.

dave

[Pukka Bundook]

Lovely and very correct work Dave.

Its coming along beautifully.
A mate years in NZ has made a few copies of these, but do not recall if suitable for this time period or later.

Nice to see details like the off- set trigger.
All very right!

All the best,
Richard.

[whetrock]

Your photos and explanations are great. I appreciate that time you are giving us in making these posts. I know it takes a lot of time.

You mentioned the differences in the markings on the lock plates: "For example, the marking's on the lock plate were clearly stamped like later India pattern Brown Besses.  The marks on a real pattern 1773 lock plate from an early Rev War carbine would be engraved.   So there is much remedial work to do with the parts set."

I am curious to hear more about what you might do there.

[smart dog]

Your photos and explanations are great. I appreciate that time you are giving us in making these posts. I know it takes a lot of time.

You mentioned the differences in the markings on the lock plates: "For example, the marking's on the lock plate were clearly stamped like later India pattern Brown Besses.  The marks on a real pattern 1773 lock plate from an early Rev War carbine would be engraved.   So there is much remedial work to do with the parts set."

I am curious to hear more about what you might do there.

Hi,
Thanks for your interest.  I will wipe out virtually all of the marks including the crown over GR.  I may have to weld over "TOWER"  if filing makes the plate too thin.  Then I will engrave the proper marks.  I will try to leave faint outlines of the crown to help me engrave it.  I will also engrave the thick and thin double line borders on the plate and flintcock. 

dave

[smart dog]

Hi,
I went south to an event at Washington's Crossing State Park in NJ where we demonstrated cannon, musket, and rifle firing.  At the event, I met up with a gentleman who had an original dragoon carbine that he thought was an Elliot of Rev War vintage.  It was actually a pattern 1776 Royal Forester's carbine made at Dublin Castle.  These are quite rare.  The stock, most hardware, and ramrod system are identical to the Elliot but it has a flat lock plate and flint cock, and the slide bar for the ring is mounted differently.  My jaw dropped when he offered to let me take it back to Vermont to study and use as a guide for my Elliot project.  So now I have the advantage and pleasure of having a very similar original gun on my bench while making the Elliot.  It does not get better than that.  Here are some photos.  Enjoy.

 
































dave

[runastav]

Nice projekt (Kloke Hund) do this and your carbine have more drop on the heel that standar BB? For me the BB stock is to straight for comfortabel shooting.
Runar

[smart dog]

Hi Runar,
I have the same problem with BBs.  The stocks, particularly on the later patterns are very straight without much drop.  However, the Elliot and Royal Forester carbines have more drop and fit much better.  They weigh less than 3kgs and are very well balanced and handy.

dave

[2 shots]

 hello Dave, in reference to the acraglas in barrel channel is it thin enough to use in a tight fitting pre inlet stock [  as in kibler fowler and or colonial]?  i dont want to take wood out of those already very thin forearms. thank you sir. mike

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
On the 2 Kibler kit guns I've made, I did not reinforce the barrel channels with AcraGlas for the very reasons you cite.

dave

[2 shots]

 thank you .

[smart dog]

Hi,
Got a lot done.  I am starting the final wood shaping and finishing and then it is stain and finish.  I don't like building plain guns because they are all grunt work and no fun.  The exceptions are flintlock military guns.  They have their own challenges with trying to research the historical features and include them in the work.  You don't have any artistic license but the nuances of the different patterns and models keeps me fascinated. With British military guns produced in the Tower of London, standards and patterns were pretty tight.  Move to Dublin Castle and those standards are given a lot more free reign.  Then move to these carbines, and all bets are off the table regardless of where they were made.  There was a lot of variation and rarely any detailed documentation.  They were described as "carbines of sorts".  The firearms historians are very confused about these guns with some saying the Royal Forester's carbines were just Elliots made in Ireland.  However, at Fort Ticonderoga I examined and measured a Royal Forester's carbine made at the Tower.  Descriptions by famous firearms historians such as Bailey, Blackmore, Ahearn, Nittolo, Kochlan, Moller, and Neumann are confusing and sloppy because the British official documentation is ambiguous and poor.  So what to do?  I looked at as many original carbines as I could and all that I could locate with possible Rev War provenance.  Then I just made executive decisions.  The details I post today are based on those decisions and the historical provenance supporting them

Despite the side plate sent with the parts set by TRS, we made a different one based on my research concerning pattern 1773 Elliots possibly used during the first years of the Rev War. It is a scaled down version of the pattern 1769 short land musket side plate.  We copied the musket pattern shown in Bailey's book "Pattern Dates ....." and reduced the size to fit the carbine lock.  However, that was not sufficient.  When I positioned the plate for inletting it was clear the rear lobe had to be bent downward. I heated the brass red hot and bent it down.  That was all it took.
 


You cannot simply throw these carbines together from TRS parts.  The gun is complicated if you hope to have it work the way the originals did.  With the side plate installed, I was ready to fit the saddle bar.  The bar has a sliding ring which is attached to the trooper's shoulder belt to hang the gun while riding. This raised a conundrum. The bar supplied by TRS is almost certainly not one appropriate for a Rev War Elliot. After a lot of research, I came up with what I believe is the right solution. It comes from an Elliot carbine sold by Joe Salter antiques that may be the best example of a pattern 1773 carbine.  So many surviving carbines were diddled with over the years but this one looks to be complete and authentic. So I went with it. The rail supplied by TRS just did not look like any of the originals I examined and was probably not authentic until the 19th century. So I modified the TRS casting a lot.




This first photo shows what it was.  Here is how I changed it with heating and welding.









It was based on this historical example.






The saddle bar cannot be positioned cavalierly because it cannot interfere with removing the forward lock bolt and the ring must slide free of any obstruction by the stock or lock bolts.   In addition, I do not know if the originals had such a washer but I cannot conceive of the anchoring system for the bar without one.  The Royal Forester's carbines have a different system but they still have metal plates supporting the screw heads.  So I turned a little brass washer and inlet it in the stock.






Finally, I got a lot of final shaping done. The swell at the rear pipe is subtle.










dave

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
A lot of work done but little that is of photographic interest.  I am final shaping the stock but in the process I decided the brass side plate was too thin.



It was made from 5/64" thick brass and was on the margin for being too thin to prevent dimpling from screws, lock bolts, and damage. I decided to fix that so I made a duplicate plate from the same brass and soldered them together. That solved any problem that might arise.  I'll post more photos tomorrow but tonight I had a spectacular sunset.  That sunset along with a cold NW wind, dramatic skies, and gunshots at dusk indicating some hunter may have scored a deer epitomize living in rural Vermont. 

dave

[Daryl]

Glad that was an evening sky because "red skies in the morning, sailor take warning."
A very ominous sky if in the morning.

[Pukka Bundook]

Look forward to seeing more of the carbine Dave!

Your pics reminded me of a few I took recently.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Nice sunset Richard!  It is wonderful to view "big sky" from your house. I am no fan of cast in engraving.  I have to remove most of it on the lock so I can engrave the proper markings.  The cast in marks must be from a pattern 1799 Elliot in which the borders and marks are stamped like on India pattern Brown Besses.  For a pattern 1773 Elliot, the marks must be engraved and look like the typical engraving found on pattern 1769 and 1777 Brown Bess muskets. I can preserve most of the crown over GR but I will clean it up by engraving.  The "TOWER" mark had to be completely removed and also the borders.
 


That involved a combination of filing and welding over. I have more to do because I cannot use any of the cast in border. Same with the flintcock.  I have to remove all the cast in border.



The cast lock parts are not TRS' s best.  The lock plate has so many casting depressions and almost none of the edges or borders of things are crisp and even.  It is all very wobbly. I have to do a lot of cosmetic cleanup. We built up the lock into a very fine one internally but the exterior needs to be brought up to the same standard. I also altered the front ramrod pipe to work better with the nose cap catch.  I handled quite a few original Royal Forester's and Elliot carbines while doing research for this project. On every one, the ramrod engages the catch on the nose cap very securely and with an audible "click".  On my carbine, the catch engages but not with the same solid feel and click of the originals. The reason is the ramrod hole in the stock was routed such that it was angled slightly up toward the breech of the barrel.  When the rod in in place the front end wants to rise up out of the ramrod groove.  The ramrod pipes have to hold it down securely to engage the nose cap.  Unfortunately, the inside diameter of the forward pipe is too large and just does not put enough downward pressure on the rod to engage the nose cap securely.  I inlet the forward pipe as deeply as I dare so I had to do something else. The solution was to simply solder a little shim inside the pipe to reduce its diameter and force the rod down into the groove and catch.




It was very easy to do and I funneled the forward end of the shim so the rod slides over it without catching. It now works just like the originals.

I finished shaping and smoothing the stock, whiskered it, and applied stain and finish.  During whiskering, I started with a dilute black water-based stain.  As I scraped and sanded it off with 220 grit paper, it revealed the rough spots requiring more sanding or scraping. The black pigment also imbedded in the open grain of the walnut, which I want.  Next I whiskered again but with a coat of pure yellow aniline dye dissolved in water. I sanded off the stain and whiskers with 320 grit paper.  Next, I dyed the stock again with yellow stain but also red alkanet root infused in turpentine. Finally, I started putting finish on the stock.  I tinted it with alkanet root but also a little LMF walnut stain to darken it a bit.  I will continue to use the tinted finish until done.  The stock sure does not look like American black walnut anymore.

 











dave

[Pukka Bundook]

That stock is very bonny Dave.
In fact, it doesn't want to look any nicer for what you are creating.

It always amazes me how you can file out the cast in lines, weld it and get the surface so correct!
I guess you have the right welding equipment!

Lovely work as always Dave!

I cant get near to doing any gun work.
4 tractors all down at once!  One now fixed, but alternator went on my truck same day, and a brake line bust!

[smart dog]

Hi,
 I am finishing up the lock. I still have to even out the cast wavy edge of the bevel around the front of the plate. That has been a pain in the butt. Anyway, I will get rid of it before case hardening the plate. I did the lock engraving, which for these castings involved getting rid of all the cast in engraving including all borders but leaving traces of the crown over GR to use as a guide. It came out well and I am pleased.  It is hard to get good photos of shiny metal and engraving until I tarnish the lock.  First, I photographed appropriate "TOWER" engraving from a pattern 1777 Brown Bess.  Then I scaled it down to fit the carbine.





Next, I printed it out on inkjet transparency.  I used the transparency with Tom White's Transfer Magic solution to print it on the lock plate.  Then I cut it.   I also cut the double borders and engraved the crown over GR.  It came out well and looks right.







Now I have to case harden the lock parts and tune the lock.  The springs were adjusted, hardened, and are tempering in my heat treating oven as I write.

dave