Author Topic: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help  (Read 866 times)

Offline LawButler

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Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« on: February 16, 2025, 09:41:00 PM »
Friends, I have a Maine family-owned (probably back to the Revolutionary War) that I am working on nailing down provenance, and would welcome assists. I've got ten ancestors who served in the Revolutionary war. Assuming I am correct that this was an 82nd regimental weapon, it didn't get to Maine until June 1779, leaving for the south in 1779.

Thanks in advance. Sorry about no photos - they were not loading today.

Barrel = 42" (not including the tang), overall length is 58.5"
On the brass butt plate, these markings: 82 over 32 (see photo), indicating 82nd foot infantry regiment, which was sent to Nova Scotia from Scotland then stationed at Castine, Maine until sent to South Carolina and then rolled up at Yorktown before being sent back to Nova Scotia.
On the left face of the butt stock, the initials "NR"
On the right side with the trigger, hammer, etc, "Tower" Crown and "GR" plus a crown with an arrow through it.
On top of the barrel, faded marks, maybe initials, and then: Po x D ii x NII or something resembling those.
No markings underneath or in the ramrod groove.

Offline LawButler

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2025, 09:43:00 PM »
If there is a trick to getting a photo to upload (I have a message, "the queue is being uploaded..." ten minutes later.











« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 06:10:50 PM by LawButler »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2025, 03:39:57 PM »
Hi,
Try loading photos today.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline LawButler

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2025, 06:11:51 PM »
boom. Th

















Thank you!

Offline smart dog

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2025, 07:42:22 PM »
Hi,
That looks like a pattern 1757 or 1759 Marine and militia musket.  I assume it does not have a wrist plate, hence the markings on the butt plate, and the butt plate has a screw in the return rather than using a lug and cross pin.  I cannot tell if the ramrod pipes are for a 3/8" wooden rod or smaller steel rod.  Does it have a brass nosecap and long trumpet forward pipe?  The simple "TOWER" mark on the lock with no date indicates it was probably set up after 1764.  I am going to make a guess that the barrel markings stand for Portsmouth Barracks Division 2 Marines.
I have no idea if these were issued later to infantry regiments like the 82nd.  I doubt it.  Ordnance stopped production of these in 1776.  Very nice piece and thanks for sharing it.

dave 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 07:54:46 PM by smart dog »
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Offline EGG17601

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2025, 07:55:22 PM »
Hi,
That looks like a pattern 1757 or 1759 Marine and militia musket.  I assume it does not have a wrist plate, hence the markings on the butt plate, and the butt plate has a screw in the return rather than using a lug and cross pin.  I cannot tell if the ramrod pipes are for a 3/8" wooden rod or smaller steel rod.  Does it have a brass nosecap and long trumpet forward pipe?  The simple "TOWER" mark on the lock with no date indicates it was probably set up after 1764.  I am going to make a guess that the barrel markings stand for Portsmouth Barracks Division 2 Marines.
I have no idea if these were issued later to infantry regiments like the 82nd.  I doubt it.  Ordnance stopped production of these in 1776.  Very nice piece and thanks for sharing it.

dave

Butt plate markings would be company#/rack#?
Lancaster, PA

Offline smart dog

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2025, 08:13:03 PM »
Hi,
I don't know.  I think the Royal marines had about 50 companies divided into 3 divisions at Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Chatham.  Eighty two would be a lot of companies.  It looks like an "FG" stamped on the barrel, which indicates Farmer and Galton as the barrel makers. The 82nd regiment was raised in late 1777 and issued new arms on Jan 6 1778.  Those would \have been either pattern 1769 short lands or pattern 1777 short lands.  Old marine muskets almost certainly would not have been issued.   

dave
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 08:28:58 PM by smart dog »
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Offline EGG17601

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2025, 08:37:48 PM »
Hi,
I don't know.  I think the Royal marines had about 50 companies divided into 3 divisions at Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Chatham.  Eighty two would be a lot of companies.  It looks like an "FG" stamped on the barrel, which indicates Farmer and Galton as the barrel makers. The 82nd regiment was raised in late 1777 and issued new arms on Jan 6 1778.  Those would \have been either pattern 1769 short lands or pattern 1777 short lands.  Old marine muskets almost certainly would not have been issued.   

dave

I thought that sounded like a lot of companies - was going by other information gleaned.
Lancaster, PA

Offline smart dog

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2025, 09:46:40 PM »
Hi,
I just found a reference indicating the marines began in 1755 with 50 companies but grew much larger at times up to 200 companies.  So the engraving on the butt plate probably means 82nd company 32nd marine from division 2 stationed in Portsmouth.  It is possible Po could mean Plymouth so there must be some reference showing where division 2 was barracked.  In truth, the marine musket could easily be from the Rev War period and marine companies from all 3 barracks were present in Boston during 1775. 

dave
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Offline EGG17601

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2025, 10:05:41 PM »
So the engraving on the butt plate probably means 82nd company 32nd marine from division 2 stationed in Portsmouth.

dave

32nd marine, as in soldier/rack number, correct?
Lancaster, PA

Offline smart dog

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2025, 10:10:46 PM »
Hi,
Yes.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline LawButler

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2025, 12:21:39 AM »
First, as an economist, I was on the floor over your quote. Sad but true.

Second, super thanks to the folks who deciphered the markings. To recap, the consensus is that the weapon was produced for the 82nd company, Marine #32 of the II Marine Division at Portsmouth.

Which was present in Boston already in 1775. That makes a lot more sense given the likely provenance in my family with ten Revolutionary War ancestors (one died of disease at Ticonderoga, the rest survived the war). The question for me is which ancestor, and how did he get his hands on it.

The model of the gun is "pattern 1769 short lands or pattern 1777 short lands". Or "pattern 1757 or 1759 Marine and militia musket"

Any idea how to confirm one or the other?

Bonus offering to say thanks - the trigger mechanism still works. When I moved to Maine from Virginia two years ago, the moving company refused to pack and ship it as a "firearm." I had to drive it up in my truck.

The ramrod is steel, no brass at the end, diameter is 5/16"










Offline EGG17601

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2025, 01:08:40 AM »
Hi,
Yes.

dave

OK, so my initial surmise was correct. Just making sure.
Lancaster, PA

Offline smart dog

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2025, 01:38:41 AM »
Hi LawButler,

With the additional photos I can tell you with complete confidence you have a pattern 1759 Marine musket made sometime after 1764.  As such it could very well be a Rev War gun.  A little context.  In 1757, parliament passed the Militia Act authorizing the government to arm citizen militia in response to repeated attempts at invasion by France. The Royal Marines were formally established in late 1755 so both the Marines and militia needed arms.  Ordnance designed a cheaper musket with 42" barrel (the standard long land musket at the time had a 46" barrel) to be handier shipboard as well as for citizen soldiers.  The new pattern 1757 Marine and militia musket cut costs by flattening the side plate, eliminating the rear pipe, wrist plate, nosecap, and long trumpet forward pipe, simplifying the butt plate, and mounting a wooden rammer.  All else was the same as the current long land musket.  Very quickly they realized the brass nosecap, rear pipe, trumpet front pipe, and steel rammer were too valuable in performance to eliminate and they upgraded the pattern 1757 to include those components.  That became the pattern 1759 Marine musket. It was the first widely issued short land musket produced by ordnance although there were a few previous carbines with 42" barrels. Marines played an important role on ship preserving order as well as during naval defense or attack.  They also played important roles during amphibious attacks and as infantry on land when needed.  At the time of Lexington and Concord there were almost 1,000 marines stationed in Boston and they were organized like the army regiments complete with grenadiers and light infantry.  Marine grenadiers and light bobs were involved in the expedition to Concord under the command of John Pitcairn.  They also played a major role during the Battle of Bunker Hill.  Marines from all three barracks, Chatham, Portsmouth, and Plymouth were stationed in Boston.  Later in the war, perhaps by 1778 or 1779, Marines were issued the standard pattern 1769 or 1777 short land muskets after their old Marine muskets were used up.  The only caveat I can think of is some old Marine and Militia muskets were issued to UK militia late in the 18th century. Again it was fear of invasion and desperate need for more arms that prompted that action.  However, they usually were marked for the militia units on the butt plate.  Yours does not seem to have any of those marks so I think there is a very good chance it was a Rev War period gun that saw service in America or at least the West Indies.

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline LawButler

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2025, 07:41:32 PM »
Incredible detail - I can confirm it has been in our family, and have high confidence in it being Revolutionary War era. Now investing money in Ancestry to see which of the likely nine ancestors might have gotten his hands on this relic.  L

Offline Story

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Re: Brown Bess Short Land Pattern identification help
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2025, 07:10:07 AM »
Incredible detail - I can confirm it has been in our family, and have high confidence in it being Revolutionary War era. Now investing money in Ancestry to see which of the likely nine ancestors might have gotten his hands on this relic.  L

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