Vertical stringing?

[Kurt]

I just came back from the range, and I believe my patch material is the issue. I marked my patch with a Sharpie and fired the first round, which hit immediately above the bull. I recovered the patch, and it was good. The second shot went 3 inches higher. I recovered that patch, and the outer portion was burned, shredded away. The third shot went off the target. I could not find that patch. I've used this material in my 40 caliber, and it works well, but this gun doesn't seem to like it. I lubed them well, so it must be the material. (?) I marked the first patch I found with a 1 on each corner and in the middle. Second patch with 2s, third 3s. I couldn't see the marking on the second patch so there is some doubt, and the third I couldn't find but based on it missing the target completly, I think the patch was the issue.

[snapper]

Did you change what you do for cleaning the bore?   If you are still getting hard loading by the 3rd shot, I would say that a dirty bore is causing your patches to fail.   

If it was your patches, the first one would be bad as well.

Fleener

[Kurt]

Seating the ball on the powder gets difficult, but pushing it down the bore is easy.

[taterbug]

Sounds like a thicker patch may help.  Like mentioned above, with a tight combination and a patch thats thick enough for the task, loading each shot will clean the barrel from the previous shot.  And the patches should almost look like they could be re-used. 

I know I've used 'bore butter' in the past, but don't remember if it affected loading, or if it caused a ring of fouling just in front of the ball when loaded.  Maybe someone else can add to that.  I think I stopped using it because it was so messy.

[Daryl]

At times, to prove a point I have used the same patch for all 5 shots in a group, with my .69
shooting 85gr. 2F with .030" denim match (12 ounce). On my mic, turned to the ratchet and
clicked 5 times, they measure .025". The groups are as good as when a new patch is used each
time. Water based lube.

[alacran]

When I shoot at our public range, I get funny looks from range officers during the cease fires. Reason being I always look for my patching.
I once had one of them ask me if I was looking for quarters. I tried explaining to him the importance of the patch and ball combination, and the fact that you need to look at a muzzleloading rifle as if it was a cartridge. I'm not sure any of my explanation made any sense to him.
But you always need to look for your patches. Even though you may have established what works best for your rifle. The reason being, if you pre-lube your patch material the lube can break down the material over time. If you are lubing your patches for every shot, it confirms that the patching is performing as expected.
So, if you're having issues with your shooting and the patches look like they should, you can look elsewhere to solve your problem.
The only time I swab the bore when shooting is if we have a long cease fire when folks are retrieving targets from the 100- yard line.
 

[Steeltrap]

If you have any mineral oil, try it. It may surprise you. It did surprise me.

[Kurt]

I thought perhaps my patch material was not all cotton as I supposed, so I burned some, and I believe it to be 100% cotton. It must be too soft a weave. I measured it and found an old shirt with the same thickness, and cut it up.

As to mineral oil, when I discovered Ballistol was something like 95% mineral I went and bought a bottle of baby oil, which is 100% and have used it to protect the outside of my guns. I've decided to use non-petroleum oils in the barrels as I read petroleum products tar up the fouling.

[Scota4570]

" I measured it and found an old shirt with the same thickness, and cut it up.  "    This is probably a problem, to thin and to weak. 

The petroleum oil - tar  issue is bunk.   There is no reason to avoid normal oil. Just do not shoot the gun without cleaning the preservative out of the barrrel first. 

Ballisotol is a stand-by for muzzle loaders.  Yes it is mostly mineral oil.  You can mix Ballistol  with water, as I do, and use it for wet patches at the range.  Ballistol is good to lube and preserve your gun.  My only objection is the pungent wet dog smell. 

I never got fine accuracy with oiled or greased patches. 

You can mix Ballistol and water, about 6:1, saturate your patches, then let them dry.  You my get better accuracy with the "dry" patch.  You will need to swab between shots.  Do not get the bore sloppy wet. 

It is a very good idea to use a petrolium grease in the bore for long term storage.  RIG for instance. 

For storage you can use lanolin mixed with dry isopropyl alcohol.    I have it for resizing lube  and it is on the bench already.  Fluid film is lanolin based and smells good.  Lanolin  is not petrolium.

Do not use grocery store animal fats or veg oil as a bore preservative unless you like rust.   Whale oil and refined bear fat are fine.   

Use strong cotton cloth with a tight weave for patching.  Measure it for thickness with a caliper  IF I were to get less than about 0.015" with a thumb pressure squeeze of the jaws I'd get something thicker.

I'd suggest buying some known good dry patches from a known vendor.  Get a couple of thicknesses.  Use the moose milk ballistol wet lube.  There is no sense fighting unknown patching materials. 

[Maven]

Good advice from scota4570!

[Kurt]

I went to Michaels and bought new patch material, lubed it with 50/50 water dish soap very well, and the patches burned up. I am using 60 Pyro RS, and it is not supposed to burn as hot as black P. Next, I twice folded some cloth and put it on top of the powder charge, then loaded the wet patched ball. Believe it or not, I found the intact folded patch attached to a destroyed ball patch! The material I bought is 100% cotton, .013 cloth. I continued to try loads with a folded patch on top of the powder and shot the group shown below. This is not acceptable, but I think I'm on the right track. Any advice on how to keep the patches from burning up is welcome. Saturating them with 50/50 water and soap isn't working in this gun. It does in my others. I ordered patches from Kibler today.

[bob in the woods]

It is my experience that .013 patching is too thin.  I'm also thinking that since this is an older TC , it was more than likely used with Pyrodex, and I'm suspecting that the barrel is pitted . That stuff demands rigorous cleaning or it will unleash metal eating minions.  Either way, try thicker patch material.  The thinnest stuff I use is .018 and that is in only one rifle. The others get .020 to .022, and they shoot clean without burning

[taterbug]

also, look for some of the topics here about 'coning' or 'polishing' the muzzle.  You may be damaging the patches during loading.  Thicker patches will help a bit, but you need to get rid of sharp edges at the muzzle if you have them. 

[Kurt]

All logical thoughts and advice, but Pyrodex was not used in it previously, as BP was available and economical, and the bore is bright and shiny. I selected .013 because the patch I was using that shot well was .012, and I wanted to go a little tighter, but more importantly, get a denser woven cloth. When cleaning the rifle yesterday, I purposely put very tight patches on the jag, even using a paper towel to increase the possibility of tearing. The only slight cutting occurred when I would push the patch into the chamber area, but at that point, I believe I had it in the space that would be filled with the powder charge, so the patched ball would not be affected. Thanks for the interest and sage advice.

[Daryl]

Kurt you are doing your rifle no favours by using that fake power.
My T.C. .50, with smoothed crown (thumb + 320grit Emery) shot best with a .495" cast ball and .022" denim and 85gr. 2F GOEX.
A fellow at Thompson Mtn. range walked up to me and said he couldn't load that combo in his (T.C) rifle. I took his .495" ball and .022 denim patch and loaded it into my .45 Bauska (.028" deep rifling) barrel then fired it into the 9 ring on my 50yd. target. I then again gave him instruction on smoothing the factory machine cut crown. That barrel had a .504" groove dia.
Kurt, your patches are too thin. To load a good combo, you need a smoothed crown. Then and only then does the ball and patch form itself into the bore without damage.
I thought we'd gone all over this, some time ago.

[Kurt]

I worked on smoothing the crown today, and as posted, ordered some .015 patches from Kibler. When they arrive, I'll be back at the range. I'm using the Pyrodex because this is a percussion rifle. I bought three pounds when I couldn't get black, it shoots well in my other two perc guns, and taking Pyrodex out of the market will only push the price of Black Powder higher. I clean my guns as well as it can possibly be done.

[alacran]

Vertical stringing is typically a result of inconsistent velocity. Your burned-out patches attest to that.

[Daryl]

Vertical stringing is typically a result of inconsistent velocity. Your burned-out patches attest to that.

Please read that again, Kurt. .015" is STILL too thin. If you insist on using loose combinations, at least put a barrier patch or wad of something between
the powder and the patched ball. That is worth a try.

[Scota4570]

OP, you can get real BP.   Mail order it or do a club group buy.  That is how we all do it. 

Pyrodex is inferior to real BP in every important way.