Effectiveness of a .40cal

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

I've hunted deer a long time with fair success. I've got a .40  flint too, though fairly new.  I do plan to take a deer with it, under circumstances I can forsee to some degree.    

An odd shaped bottom where a wet branch feeds a 50 foot wide creek. The longest shot is 50 yards  and 5 yards wide, the next longest is 29 yards, some are 7 yards. I get one or more there every year and have for years. Lucky to be in NC, where the state now gives you all the tags you want on request in the eastern zone.  Got one  4 pt.  this last season at 17 yards with a cartridge gun, the first time I've ever seen a bullet impact before the recoil drove the scope off.  

I am just thankful to my maker I can still hunt and make a short drag to the path I can get the truck to.  Those young guys with magnum itis razz me endlessly when I  seek help. You know how it is.   I have to do something to keep them in awe. Heck,  many of them miss, few can track, and some are even skeered in the woods at night.  

Use your 40s. Set up the hunt in your favor. If you don't feel its a good shot, just wait.  That's no different than  watching a great deer  that is too far, no matter the gun.  

I once carried an 8 X 56 M-S ten years, a few days each year, without a shot until a perfect Ga. woods deer, 10 point typical @ 16" fell to it.  Thats my life time eastern whitetail trophy, even though I have larger mounted.  A poll isn't required to hunt as our forefathers did. The spark is in you.  Lon

[hanshi]

This discussion occurs everywhere men hunt or where there are gun forums.  I know the DRT factor increases dramatically from 45 RB on up. The older I get the more I rely on that.   

I also  believe some men should not hunt at all. That writer mentioned above that shot deer in the neck even though he never aimed there is one.  He's a Zumbo.   

Here in North Carolina where most hunting  is via "club" arrangements the young fellers  consistently need an ultimag to dump deer with their nose in the bait pile from an 85 yard tree stand.  It's a rare fellow can make an offhand shot at distance.   

A fellow that can head shoot gray squirrels at 50 yards or more under typical field conditions has a choice.   Lon

I'm just guessing but I'm fairly sure I'm the one (of those) who shouldn't "hunt at all" that you referred to.  Well, I don't know, but you could be right; who knows.  I have no idea what a "zumbo" might be but I'm quite sure it isn't a compliment.  It's curious, though, as you don't know me or anything about me yet can decide on the spur of the moment that I shouldn't hunt and am a "zumbo".  I'm not offended or anything like that because I know what I can and can't do and what I should or should not be doing.

I will say this, however; hitting a deer but not where you aimed has been acknowledged by a couple of other posters.  Anyone who has ACTUALLY hunted more than just a "little bit" has experienced off shots.  ALL my "accidental" hits were DRTs, NONE ran very far and I NEVER lost one.  How can this be improved?  Pretty good, I say, for someone who shouldn't be hunting.  I've been a hunter for nearly half a century and I've learned a lot.  I know some claim skills, knowledge and experience that don't stand up to scrutiny.  And some of these tend to judge others.

I've never taken a deer with a .40 so couldn't vote on the poll.  All my deer were taken with either a .45, .50 or .54.  I'm not surprised more didn't vote.  The number is still on par with other polls I've seen.  Also there are probably not that many who actually do use a .40 for deer.  Could you please tell me what a "zumbo" is?  That's a new one on me. 

[Mike R]

I had to go back and search for the zumbo remark--I think he was referring to a sportswriter named Zumbo, but I can't figure the meaning...

[hanshi]

Ah, okay.  I know who Jim Zumbo is and have read some of his articles.  I'm not sure about the comparison as I don't know that much about him.  Don't know if he even shoots bp.  Interesting!

[northmn]

^{I will say this, however; hitting a deer but not where you aimed has been acknowledged by a couple of other posters.  Anyone who has ACTUALLY hunted more than just a "little bit" has experienced off shots.  ALL my "accidental" hits were DRTs, NONE ran very far and I NEVER lost one.  How can this be improved?  Pretty good, I say, for someone who shouldn't be hunting.  I've been a hunter for nearly half a century and I've learned a lot.  I know some claim skills, knowledge and experience that don't stand up to scrutiny.  And some of these tend to judge others.
I've never taken a deer with a .40 so couldn't vote on the poll.  All my deer were taken with either a .45, .50 or .54.  I'm not surprised more didn't vote.  The number is still on par with other polls I've seen.  Also there are probably not that many who actually do use a .40 for deer.)}

I suspected some claim's are based on a few deer also.  when you have hunted about a half century like we have, you have seen a lot of things happen.  I remember one deer I skillfully hit in the neck which was very close.  It was a quick shot situation as I walked up on the deer.  I aimed behind the shoulder on a very quartering shot and hit a little high and broke the neck right above the torso.  Sometimes things go very right other times even under ideal conditions things do not.

DP

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

I mean no offense to anyone. Some of what is said here is opinion.  Zumbo was the long time  hunting writer who suggested  hunters had no real use for a semi-auto ar-15.  Upset 3/4 of american shooters.  My reference to him was to suggest he had so little experience despite his public pontification that he did not know that millions of these rifles were in successful use in deer hunting.  We have 8 year olds in the county, hunting with their fathers, kill deer with the 223.  He was a phony in my experience.     

But no offence to anyone. My little .32 story was my experience. I've killed many deer with the traditional southern shotgun and buckshot ahead of dogs. How fast is buckshot.  Well my old load of 30 caliber # 1 buck Winchester 2 3/4 12 ga. was 12 pellets  @ 1250 fps.  But I limited my shots too.  I know  how buckshot penetrates the deer.   

What if Fadala had said 50 was the minimum for BP RB deer hunting?  He has. That a nice opinion. It's sure not valid for many of us.   

I have a story like Northmn's too. Only a young buck in my case and maybe 25 yards.  The only difference was a blood trail allowed recovery. I remember it now like it was yesterday.     

Deer will jump the hammer on a close  flint shot sure as jumping a string on a bow.   

That deer ducked, turned slightly, took the shot doing that, continued turning, jumped, landed,  crossed its backtrail, and went nearly 200 yards. I did too after I cut the trail, on my hands  and knees. the animal's skin recovered the entrance hole after the escape duck and turn, the 58 RB lodged in the rear quarter after entering the opposite front quarter so once the initial blood loss shed off the hide, very little escaped.  It took two hours in the dark to find it nearly dead.  The only deer I ever killed with a hearty KLONK  between the horns delivered by a  Leman brass buttplate.  Lon. 

[omark]

i didnt vote because my experience has been with mule deer does. but here goes. the first was less than 10 yds, she was looking at me and i aimed between the eyes. i figure she jumped the flash cause it just cut a groove in the top of her head.    the second was about 30 yds, figure she jumped the flash also. she was looking at me, but her body was pointed to my right. i aimed just behind her shoulder. when the smoke cleared she was facing left and recovering from what looked like a stumble. she ran to the left and jumped a fence. i trailed her about 1/4 mile to find her barely alive. turned out i hit her in the neck on the left side, ball traveled forward and came out under her jaw towards the right. she bled a lot, easy trailing.       the third was about 40 yds. she was turned to my right and had her head down (trying to beat the flash jumping). aimed behind her right shoulder and she dropped like a sack of hammers. hit her high and broke her back with the ball angling toward the rear. this was the only ball i recovered. i guess to state my opinion, for deer i think a 50 should be about the min with a rb. i have been deer hunting ml for about 40 yrs. i have used 40, 50 and 62, all with rb. if you can pick your shot, a 40 will do, obviously.   

[omark]

to finish my thought,if you shoot any distances, as is common in colo. you should use at least a 50 and my next rifle will probably be a 54.  if i remember right, i only recovered 1 ball from a 50 in a mulie. i had gut shot him and he stopped with his butt to me, so i felt i needed to shoot to get him down, and it did. i have yet to recover a ball from my 62.

[hanshi]

Yep, this is a fact.  All my accidental neck/spine hits were very close shots.  I also firmly believe many, many more deer are lost to centerfire/inline hunters than to traditional prb hunters.  Really something when you consider traditionalists don't use scopes or have firearms with fast lock times.

[Herb]

Pvt. Lon:  I hunted mule deer with Jim Zumbo up by Graybull, Wyoming, in the late 1970's and knew him when he lived in Vernal.  He was (is) a very skilled hunter and did a lot for the hunting sports.  He has my photo in his book "Hunting America's Mule Deer" on page 117, describes a shot I made on pages 113-114 and has a photo of that mulie buck I killed on page 259, with the .257 Roberts Ackley Improved I built.  In this book he has a chapter on muzzleloading hunting, and he did hunt with a flintlock and caplock.  He gives good information.  He said "Mule deer hunters should not use anything less than a .50 caliber rifle, even though many deer have been killed with smaller calibers.  The proper velocities and energies are found in the .50 and bigger calibers."

As I understand what happened to him, he voiced his opinion on his web site that military style semi-automatic weapons were not proper hunting arms.  That cost him very dearly.  But he is a fine proponent of sporting firearms and hunting and I respect him very much.  He is not a phony, and he is my friend.

[northmn]

Zumbo got singed by the NRA for making comments that the AR15 may give a paramilitary impression to hunters by non-hunters.  "Tactical" weapons have become popular and weren't his thing.  The acolytes of the NRA that devoutly follow their every word went after him.  While I am a member of the NRA, I do feel that they get a little carried away sometimes.  They also have strongly supported hunting with modern zip-guns in ML seasons.  That is the story of Zumbo who was probably one of the more experienced hunters to write articles.  Most writers today write advertisements for equipment more tahn for hunting experiences, which is why I do not subscribe to many magazines any more.  The magazines have to support their advertisers.

DP

[Daryl]

Boys, 'nuf about people.  Has this topic about run the roost?  I would appreciate if the personal attacks were eliminated - you can edit.  This adds nothing to the thread.  I like a discussion as much as anyone - we don't need personal attacks. This leads to confrontational debates & this forum is not about that.

[Leatherbelly]

   This is just me. After reading all these posts, my fear of hunting big game with muzzleloaders is more confirmed.  I really dislike the thought of any game I've shot to run off and die slowly. None, that I have shot with modern cartridge have.Not one! This includes big mulies, trophy size moose, elk, and whitetails. I really like the one shot poleaxe, and I believe(just me again), that the shots which anchor the game makes for better table fare. No time for the adrenalin rush which I believe happens when the animal runs.
  In a previous post I said that I may shoot a whitetail if all the conditions were right, with the forty, and I would...but, I would do the same with a high power. I only shoot if the  conditions and correct variables present themselves and the shot can be placed correctly.
  So, hunting big game with a muzzleloader has become my phobia.

[The other DWS]

just a couple comments:

"Maybe there was tons of deer available back then."  Most ecologists of historic bent believe that the climax forest with minimal understory that covered the eastern US did not support a large deer population. In addition the larger pre-contact pre-epidemic Native American population may have kept what deer there were trimmed down. Most deer were probably taken in the "edges",  margins of swamps, canebreaks, fire cleared openings, around salt licks, etc where they could find browse. 

 After the country was logged off it opened things up for new growth which allowed a greatly augmented food supply and an greatly enlarged deer population.   Everything I have read seems to indicate that we currently have a larger deer population that at any time in the past.

I also wonder about the effectiveness of a smaller diameter/lighter weight lead round ball.  While a pure lead ball will flatten somewhat on contact with bone it still is not an "expanding bullet".  It must depend on reduced kinetic energy and a smaller wound channel to cause death.    I personally would not be comfortable hunting deer with anything under 45 cal and even then would be extremely picky with the shots I chose to take.    Others with more experience and skill might see things differently of course.

[Swampwalker]

I would refute DWS's statement regarding deer populations - the eastern US had had continuous occupation by semi-agricultural people practising slash and burn agriculture for about 8 to 10 thousand years, and the forest was likely a mosaic of different aged stands with small to large openings.  Also, many native americans maintained an open forest canopy by the use of fire.  The indians, attuned to the animals with which they shared habitat, probably picked up early on what types of habitat supported game, and practiced some manipulations of their environment.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

What I have noticed over the years is that "minimums" have increased.

Yah.  I'll bet back in the 19th century guys didn't sit around jammerin' about ft-lbs, fps, trajectories etc.   

I bet they just went behind the barn, set up some targets and actually tried to SEE if the gun & shooter (every gun still needs a shooter don't it?) could do anything worthwhile.  They probably didn't just punch holes in paper (too valuable, scrap paper was saved for the outhouse).  They tested terminal ballistics as well as accuracy.  So the .32 might hit the long dead center, but the 50 succeeded in knocking it over.  And so on.

[dannybb55]

All of the rifles that I have seen/ handled in NC were 36 to 40 cal and they were generally working rifles. Long barreled, half stocked, back action percusion for the most part, that dated sometime around the civil war when tobacco and corn was grown everywhere on small farms. Lead, powder and caps cost so the smallest useful bore was the way to go. The earlier longrifles were the same bore too. By the 19th century the Bison, big cats and big bears were long gone and after 1830 or so, the Indians too. Dangerous game need a fat lead pill. deer, coons, tree bacon...not so much.

[bob in the woods]

Yes , I would shoot a deer with a .40, but, during deer hunting season, I would not normally be carrying a .40.    Usually I carry a .54 or .62 or my 10 bore.  If you have ever looked around while on your watch and noticed a bear stalking you [ it happened to me ]  you'd probably carry something bigger than a .40 unless small critter hunting .   As for fear /apprehension re hunting with a muzzleloader, and mine are flintlocks, I fear absolutely nothing with the .62 or especially the 10 bore. Nothing has ever walked far after a hit from "Bess"   Leatherbelly, if you want a guarantee, 140 gr FFg and a .735 ball is about as close as you will get 

[Daryl]

   Leatherbelly, if you want a guarantee, 140 gr FFg and a .735 ball is about as close as you will get 

A 480gr. ball and 165gr.2F will also work - if you hit them right.

[peabody]

 


ahhh well.... dunno,  after reading this post, and reading other posts on other sites, this subject comes up alot,  .40 caliber for deer, etc....
im just sayin ?  seems too me, the .45 caliber would be a very good all around choice.

and this opinion is from reading the web... soooo  throw alotta salt over yer left shoulder, and touch yer toes ten times...

powder and lead savings, light rifles, accurate, eazy to shoot.
i thinkin ? the .45 is a jack of all trades, just a thought.

and having said all that, im wantin a southern poor boy, flinklock in the worst way.....
and yes, i want a .40 


peabody

[dannybb55]

45 is an excellent choice. I have shot mine since 1985 and it too is a Southern Poorboy. It has been restocked from walnut to maple, re triggered, new sights and is now due for a new lock as the original is shot out. The barrel is an old 7/8 by 41in Douglas and she has always shot well. I bought her second hand in Burlington, NC at the Patch and Ball. The owner wanted a thousand for a 40 caliber Poorboy with a large Siler lock and 135 for the 45 so the choice wasn't that hard. I always wanted the 40 though. My next project will be a Deringer in 40 with a 44 in swamped barrel and a Chambers Ketland lock. You think that would work Sean? A bit light for high Mesa hunting in Texas, but perfect for tree bacon and coon in NC.