Opinions On Kibler SMR Tribute to Williamsburg Southern Rifle

[Sherrell]

Greetings,

I’m new to the forum.  This is my first post.

Fifty years ago, I built a T/C .45 cal Hawken from a kit my parents bought me as a college graduation gift.  Still have it.  Love it.  Tight groups.

I’m just becoming active in the SAR Color Guard.  I would like to acquire a rifle to use on the CG firing line that is a tribute to the Southern American rifle in Colonial Williamsburg’s collection (Object 2004-5 found at https://emuseum.colonialwilliamsburg.org/objects/70012/southern-american-long-rifle ).  I’m fascinated by that gun.  It has some of the characteristics of rifles that came to be known as Tennessee Rifles. It has a long (45+-inch), .45 cal, octagonal, swamped barrel in a delicate full walnut stock.     But if the dating of the gun is correct, it has these attributes some 20-30 years before the definitive TR attributes emerged.  Perhaps a transitional form from SW VA, upper ET, or Western NC?

Anyway, I really don’t want to sink a ton of money into a Color Guard gun that will probably see duty in some unkind environments that would cause me to constantly be worrying about harming the finish on a contemporary builder’s masterpiece. 

I’m thinking that since I have limited building experience, Jim Kibler’s .45 cal walnut stocked SMR is the closest practical “tribute” option I have for the Williamsburg Southern Rifle – even though Jim’s SMR has an iron trigger guard and two triggers.

I’m seeking opinions/advice on my thought process.  Are there better options for me given my limited build experience?

If Jim’s SMR is the best option, I’d welcome advice on finishing the barrel, metal parts, and stock to approximate what the Williamsburg rifle would have probably looked like when new.
Are there things I could easily do to make Jim’s SMR a more faithful approximation of the Williamsburg rifle?

Thanks in advance for your advice and counsel.

Sherrell

[AZshot]

Welcome back to the black powder fold.  You will enjoy a Kibler kit, I made my first one last winter over the Christmas holiday and it was an enjoyable process. 

I think one of Kiblers other rifles might be better for a Williamsburg reenactment gun.  The Southern Mountain Rifle was an Appalachian rifle type, thin and made to shoot small game up to deer size, in the 1800-1845 period.  Williamsburg was more of a colonial major tidewater town. The two were worlds apart.

I think you could look at a Colonial rifle kit. Here are some photos of some finished:
https://katherinewerre.smugmug.com/Colonial-Rifle-Kit-Customer-Photos

[rich pierce]

Welcome, and thanks for introducing me to an early rifle I don’t recall seeing before. It has wonderful folk art carving. I’d think it was 1790-1800 based on the trigger guard, but we are only making guesses when it comes to dates. If looking for a ready to assemble-and-finish gun you’ve got good advice above. You might also consider Kibler’s Woodsrunner rifle.

I bet someone here will soon build a rifle from a blank, based on that original you cited, after seeing it.

[Sherrell]

AZshot & Rich,

Thank you both for your kind replies to my posts.

I need you to tutor me if you would be so kind.  Your expert eyes are seeing things I don’t see.

One, unfortunately, cannot see the tang on the Williamsburg Southern Rifle. It looks short.  But there’s no certain way to compare it to other rifles from that perspective.

To my eye, Kibler’s SMR looks MUCH more similar to the Williamsburg Southern Rifle in silhouette than either his Colonial or Woods Runner. (After all the museum there even calls it a “Southern Rifle”.)

The Woods Runner is the most different - much shorter barrel, very different and accentuated wrist on the stock, more dramatic “fanning” (spread?) of the rear portion of the sock, and much heavier stock from tip of barrel all the way to the butt plate.  On the positive side, the trigger guard on the Woods Runner is (like the Williamsburg Southern Rifle) brass and it is very similar in shape to the Williamsburg Southern Rifle.

Kibler's Colonial rifle appears, in silhouette, more similar to the Williamsburg Rifle than the Woods Runner.  And it is a bit closer to the length of the Williiamsburg Southern Rifle. But the Colonial also has a much bulkier stock from end to end.  The trigger guard on the Colonia is brass (good thing), but is a more flattened oval than that of the Williamsburg Southern Rifle.

These are the things that jump out to me when I lay pictures of the four rifles side by side. 
All three Kibler’s are a significant compromise if one is aiming to replicate that Williamsburg Southern Rifle. 
But to my novice, unschooled eye, Kibler’s Southern presents fewer compromises in form (silhouette) than do either of this other two Kibler rifles.

So again, I’m approching this as a “teachable moment”.  Tutor me guys!

Thanks,
Sherrell

[mountainman]

That Southern American Longrifle in the museum is pretty cool.
Would almost seem like it did not have a buttplate, but it does seem like all the other hardware that's on it has brass on it. The overall dimension is more robust than that of Kibler's SMR. I think you're better choice would be the Colonial.

[rich pierce]

The deeply curved narrow buttplate on the Kibler SMR is a tell-tale giveaway that the gun is post 1800 and similar to many later guns from the percussion era.  Most of the advice you’re being given has to do with how we’d instantly estimate when a longrifle was built, based on many architectural details, than on overall profile.

[whetrock]

Welcome to the forum, Sherrell.

That Williamsburg rifle is a cool rifle. Yeah, I've seen a few TN mountain rifles that had a similar cheekpiece.

Kibler's "southern mountain rifle" is based largely on a Whitson rifle built much later than the Williamsburg rifle you are admiring. Here's a link with photos of that original Whitson rifle. Have a look at these photos. The Whitsons worked in western NC. This is one of the most elegant antique mountain rifles that has been found. It was already a thin rifle, and Jim Kibler's interpretation uses a lighter weight, more heavily swamped barrel, which makes Kibler rifle even lighter and thinner in the forearm than the original.
 
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59088.0

[mountainman]

Thanks for sharing that link Whetrock!! Those Whitson rifles have a beauty of their own, with nice clean lines along with their architecture.
There's clearly a timeline difference between the museum gun and the Whitson's rifles like you mentioned above! Both very beautiful, but different time frame.

[Ky-Flinter]

The Williamsburg "Southern" Rifle


Kibler Colonial Rifle


Kibler Southern Mountain Rifle


Hi Sherrell,

Welcome to ALR.  Thanks for making us aware of the Williamsburg rifle.  It's a great gun and most worthy of recreation.  If you want to use a kit to recreate the Williamsburg rifle there will be some areas that will not be an exact match, but rather will have to be "close enough".

Features on the Kibler SMR that will be hard to overcome, as these parts are pre-inlet:
- The SMR trigger guard is iron.  You need a brass one.
- The SMR trigger is a double set.  You need a single trigger.
- The SMR barrel tang is very long.  We don't have a picture of the Williamsburg tang but the museum's description states "Plain breech plug tang with stepped & lobed end."
- The SMR has a narrow butt stock and deeply curved butt plate.

The Kibler Colonial kit has several features the same or similar to the Williamsburg rifle, brass trigger guard, single trigger, wood patchbox.  It has an appropriate length breech plug tang, although not lobed, it could be altered and wood added.

The Williamsburg barrel is 45-3/16 long.  The Colonial is 43-1/4.  Close enough?

The Williamsburg lock is a long, flat-faced Germanic lock.  The SMR lock is a shorter, later time period, English lock.  The Colonial lock is long and of the appropriate time, but is a round-faced English lock.

As you mentioned, the Colonial also has a much bulkier stock from end to end, but that will work to your advantage.  You can remove unneeded wood, but it's a lot harder to add it where the SMR would need it.

To make the most accurate copy will require starting with a blank stock.  To do it with a kit will require some compromises.

Good luck with your quest.  It's a great gun.

Ron

[Sherrell]

This conversation is very helpful to me.  I appreciate everyone’s input.

If I had my way in a perfect world, I’d purchase a contemporary replica or build a rifle that is “representative” of the rifles the Overmountain Men would have carried at Kings Mountain and (with all due respect to Daniel Morgan’s riflemen) at Cowpens (1780-81).  But it isn’t clear to me in my modest state of understanding that there is any such thing as a “representative” backwoods frontier rifle at that time from this region given: (1) the immigration to the area and the fact many would have brought with them rifles manufactured in other regions, and (2) what was happening in Southwest VA, Upper East TN, and Western NC gun smithing at the time.  Thoughts on this larger question (which is actually the motivation for my original question) are solicited as well.

Cheers.

[Sherrell]

Ron,
Your analysis is particularly helpful.
Not encouraging, but helpful. (SMILE)
Thank you.
I will be very interested to hear your thoughts about the underlying question I posted above.
Sherrell

[Joe Stein]

You might find some information regarding your quest in this forum in the section "The Bruce Miller Virtual Library...".  Also consider that many of the rifles were likely carried South when the families migrated from or through Pennsylvania and Maryland.