Markings On A Dickert Barrel

[Fullstock longrifle]

Signed Dickert barrel with engraved initials MR on the top flat near the tang. Barrel makers markings are usually under the barrel, so I’m not sure why these initials are here. What are your thoughts?

[JTR]

Good question!
I read somewhere, probably last century, that the old makers would take the barrel runout into consideration, and mount the barrel so the runout would have it shooting high. Maybe the runout on this barrel had it shooting high with the barrel makers mark on the top flat?
That's certainly a nice Dickert signature!
John

[Fullstock longrifle]

Good question!
I read somewhere, probably last century, that the old makers would take the barrel runout into consideration, and mount the barrel so the runout would have it shooting high. Maybe the runout on this barrel had it shooting high with the barrel makers mark on the top flat?
That's certainly a nice Dickert signature!
John

Interesting, hadn’t thought of that John, could very well be the case here. If it’s the barrel maker, any thoughts on who MR might be?

[OLUT]

For what it's worth .... over 50 years ago, an elderly and knowledgeable collector told me that  when the breech plug was screwed into an already marked barrel, it was easier just to leave the stamping wherever it fell rather than take the time to modify the plug or barrel unless it was a higher quality and priced gun. I don't know if it's true, but that's his story

[Habu]

I have to ask, what does the rest of the rifle look like?

[Fullstock longrifle]

As requested, here are a couple pictures of the Dickert rifle. Fairly early working man’s gun, plain with no carving, just some basic forearm and buttstock moldings.

[Habu]

Nice--thanks for posting those!

[davebozell]

Awesome rifle!  Thanks for posting the pictures.  Would love to see more if you have them.

[Fullstock longrifle]

Awesome rifle!  Thanks for posting the pictures.  Would love to see more if you have them.

Unfortunately Dave there isn’t much more to show, no carving or inlays, but if there are specific areas you want closeups of, I’ll get them for you.

[Tanselman]

On some restocked rifles I have seen, if the barrel was signed by the original gunmaker, the second gunmaker re-using the older barrel often left the first gunmaker's name on the barrel... I presume out of respect for his elder, especially if the barrel had been hand-made in the original gunsmith's shop.

This Dickert rifle, while a great gun, is a bit on the plain side without butt carving and somewhat limited engraving. While speculation on my part, it seems to be the type of gun where the owner may have requested a good quality but lower cost gun, perhaps provided an older barrel from a family rifle [or Dickert had one], and was willing to re-use a good older barrel while limiting the amount of decoration added by Dickert... keeping the gun reasonable.

When I see the older looking "M.R" on the top barrel flat, where guns were normally marked by the gunmaker, it makes me wonder if the barrel might have been a good quality earlier barrel by Mathias Roeser of Lancaster, who worked in the area earlier than Dickert.   

Shelby Gallien

[Fullstock longrifle]

Not his fanciest engraving, but still well done and original to the rifle.

[debnal]

Frank,
Ver nice rifle. Looks to me to be a Dickert rifle for a man who wasn't as well off as some of Dickert's other clients. If it had extensive carving it would look just fine. The lack of carving is the only thing different from other Dickerts I have seen.
Al. 

[Fullstock longrifle]

Frank,
Ver nice rifle. Looks to me to be a Dickert rifle for a man who wasn't as well off as some of Dickert's other clients. If it had extensive carving it would look just fine. The lack of carving is the only thing different from other Dickerts I have seen.
Al.

Thank you Al and I agree with everything you said.

[backsplash75]

There is a chance the MR could be a militia unit marking as well, Dickert sold rifles to PA militia rifle units in the war of 1812 (see Moller v2).

[Fullstock longrifle]

There is a chance the MR could be a militia unit marking as well, Dickert sold rifles to PA militia rifle units in the war of 1812 (see Moller v2).

Your post got me researching the different early contracts that Dickert had and I found an article on the internet written by Ed Flanagan for the American Society titled “1792 and 1807 Contract Rifles”. He discuses the various contracts and shows a picture of a contract rifle with very similar markings at the breech. He thought they were barrel makers marks and from Martin Fry (MF). My mark is a bit clearer and I think the marking is most likely MR. So I’m now thinking the marking on my barrel are those of the barrel maker. So was this a left over barrel from the contract or could the entire rifle have been one of his contract rifles? That could explain why it’s so plain. Thoughts?

[backsplash75]

There is a chance the MR could be a militia unit marking as well, Dickert sold rifles to PA militia rifle units in the war of 1812 (see Moller v2).

Your post got me researching the different early contracts that Dickert had and I found an article on the internet written by Ed Flanagan for the American Society titled “1792 and 1807 Contract Rifles”. He discuses the various contracts and shows a picture of a contract rifle with very similar markings at the breech. He thought they were barrel makers marks and from Martin Fry (MF). My mark is a bit clearer and I think the marking is most likely MR. So I’m now thinking the marking on my barrel are those of the barrel maker. So was this a left over barrel from the contract or could the entire rifle have been one of his contract rifles? That could explain why it’s so plain. Thoughts?

from the ASAC article by Flanagan:

The barrel is stamped MF and US at the breech with
the U cut in half when the barrel was shortened (Figure 3).
There are several letters from Knox to Hand discussing the
markings to be applied to the contract rifles. From these let-
ters, the rifles were marked US; one letter referred to the
usual method of marking them US.5 The implication here is
that all were being marked. I believe that all contract rifles
were marked because the Government learned back during
the Revolutionary War that unmarked arms and material dis-
appeared unless marked US or with some form of United
States.

From Moller specific to PA contract rifles (NB your gun lacks the US marking):

PENNSYLVANIA MILITIA RIFLES 145.S5
As indicated earlier in this section on Pennsylvania rifles, the
commonwealth's archival sources indicate that rifles were purchased for at
least two specific rifle companies in late 1814. These rifles were delivered
directly to the rifle companies, which had been raised for federal service in
Maryland. The limited available information on these two purchases follows.
On August 14, 1814, payment was made by the state treasurer to a James
Trimble so that he could purchase fifty-six rifles for Captain Gavin Henry's
rifle company. Trimble is believed to have been a militia brigade inspector.
The price ultimately paid for these rifles was $17.50 each. Unfortunately,
there is no information in state archival records of the name or names of the
gunmakers who supplied the rifles. The records state that the rifles were
placed into storage at York immediately after the war. It is speculated that
Gavin Henry's rifle company was from that immediate area.
On October 28, 1814, the state treasurer paid for rifles and other items for
Captain William Hamilton of the Lancaster Rifle Company. Thirty-three of
these rifles were made by Peter Gonter, and eleven rifles were made by Jacob
Dickert. Later payments were also made for additional rifles for this
company, which were purchased by the Lancaster town burgesses, but it is
not known how many were purchased or from whom. Because of conflicting
amounts in the treasurer's and comptroller's records examined, the prices
actually paid to Gonter and Dickert are unknown.
Surviving examples of rifles attributed to these purchases were made by
some of the same Lancaster and York County gunmakers who fabricated the
U.S. 1807 contract army rifles and are very similar, but have full-octagonal
barrels rather than the one-third octagonal barrels of the U.S. Army rifles.
The rifles made for the Pennsylvania militia do not have U.S. proof,
inspection, or ownership marks. Because they were delivered directly to the
rifle companies who urgently needed them, rather than to the state arsenal at
Harrisburg, they apparently escaped being stamped with Pennsylvania
ownership marks.
Similar rifles may also have been made by John Guest, Joseph Henry, and
Jacob Doll for private sale to members of the Pennsylvania militia during the
War of 1812. A known rifle by Doll is somewhat fancier than the others, as it
has a four-piece patchbox and other, more decorative, furniture.
The octagonal barrels of most Pennsylvania militia rifles have a 17/8″ to 2″
round section at the muzzle. The stock foretips of rifles with the round
muzzle sections end behind these round sections. It is not known whether the
projecting round muzzle section was simply a stylistic feature or whether it
was to provide for a bayonet. Very few of the rifles with these round muzzles
have bayonet lugs. If bayonets were used with rifles with round muzzle
sections but no lugs, they must have been retained by friction or by a
setscrew in the bayonet's socket. The round muzzle section of several rifles
was measured, and very little discernible taper was recorded. Surviving
bayonets for these rifles are not known. It is believed that, if the round
section was intended to serve as for a socket bayonet, the rifles were altered
subsequent to their original manufacture, possibly in the early 1820s, when
South Carolina is known to have altered some of its state-owned rifles to
accept bayonets. Prior to this, the role of the rifleman had been that of a
skirmisher and a sharpshooter. He was not intended to be in the line infantry,
where he would receive and partake in bayonet charges.
These rifles have a very plain appearance. Their octagonal barrels are
usually 36″ to 381/2″, and most are pin-fastened to maple stocks. Some are
retained by flat keys. Most surviving examples were made by Jacob Dickert
of Lancaster. He purchased locks for his rifles, and they are marked
“DREPPERT” and “SWEITZER.” The brass furniture includes simple,
undecorated two-piece brass patchboxes and trigger guards. The ramrod
thimbles are usually formed from sheet brass.
The rifle described here was made by Jacob Dickert. It has the round
muzzle section described previously. This is presented only as a typical
example; other similar rifles, even those made by Dickert, will vary in detail.
For example, various Dickert rifles have different bore diameters and both
seven- and eight-groove rifling. These rifles also exhibit minor variations in
the decoration and configuration of their mountings.
Plate 145.S5-A This very plain brass-mounted Jacob Dickert rifle is attributed to Pennsylvania militia
purchase during the War of 1812. Most examples of similar rifles by John Guest and J. Joseph Henry
also have octagonal barrels with a short round section at the muzzle and plain two-piece patchboxes.
GENERAL INFORMATION
Caliber: .54.
Overall Length: 543/16″.
Finish: All metal is browned.
Brass Components: Butt plate, patchbox, trigger guard, side plate, thimbles,
forend cap, and front sight.
Procurement: At least eleven rifles were made for the Pennsylvania militia
by Dickert.

ETA there is an earlier ASAC article on these titled "Pre-1814 U.S. Martial Contract Rifles" that has some interesting info on bore size selection/preferences and other info many here would enjoy: https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/1982-B47-Pre-1814-U-S-Martial-Contract-Rifles.pdf

[Fullstock longrifle]

Thanks Backsplash75, all good information and it’s a possibility that it was made for the Pennsylvania militia but mine doesn’t have the turned muzzle for a bayonet. I guess I’ll never know for sure, but I’m pretty confident that the MR mark at least is from a barrel maker now.

[backsplash75]

No problem, and interesting rifle. It may be a coincidence, but Moller notes these rifle Companies were hastily raised and armed to serve in Maryland. In addition, it is worth noting that the state of Pennsylvania marked it's Revolutionary war era arms in years prior with a "PP" mark. I suspect there is archival info out there that can illuminate the true meaning of MR, whether it is a maker's or ownership mark or unit designation.

Moller V1

It is speculated that this is an ownership marking and may mean “Pennsylvania Property” or
“Pennsylvania Province.”

[Ky-Flinter]

I enlarged the photograph from the American Society article and the marking identified as "MF" sure looks like "MR" to me.

Ron

[spgordon]

I enlarged the photograph from the American Society article and the marking identified as "MF" sure looks like "MR" to me.

Ron

Yep, totally agree. It's MR on that rifle included in the ASAC article.

I thought before--and am even more convinced by the two MR barrels--that the MR has nothing to do with Matthias Roesser.

[Fullstock longrifle]

I enlarged the photograph from the American Society article and the marking identified as "MF" sure looks like "MR" to me.

Ron

Yep, totally agree. It's MR on that rifle included in the ASAC article.

I thought before--and am even more convinced by the two MR barrels--that the MR has nothing to do with Matthias Roesser.

Yes, Flanagan was mistaken when he thought the markings were MF, the markings on both rifles are MR. So you’ve seen this marking (MR) on other rifles? Could they be some sort of acceptance marks on militia used rifles?