Jim Kibler's Bess kit

[smart dog]

Hi Bob,
That is certainly right and after the great improvements made in powder at the turn of the 18th/19th centuries, much smaller charges can be used.  We find that 80-90 grains of 2F work well from repro Besses with patched round ball.  We also have success with the same charge of powder with a felt wad, then bare ball, and then tow or a thin wad on top. Unfortunately, after having built an elegant and well fitted English fowler for myself, shooting a Bess is fun as a curiosity but it does not compare.  I recently used the fowler on a woods walk.  I had not shot it in a while and was trying to reacquaint myself with the sight picture and not doing all that well.  Then I remembered "don't over think it".  Just shoulder the gun, place the front sight on your target and shoot.  I hit everything after that. No need to think about sight picture because that is automatically accounted for by the fit of the gun.

dave   

[Bob Gerard]

Dave- I can’t agree with you more about “aiming”! Often times when I invite a fellow muzzleloader to shoot my Fusil de Chasse  (or my smoothbore pistol), they ask “How do you aim it?” I proverbially scratch my head and can’t really describe it to them.
I find the same way shooting clay pigeons with that gun. It just comes naturally and I seldom miss.
I think shooting my FdC is a lot more fun than my rifles.

[rfd]

The form/aiming/firing process for me between most any military musket (Bess. Charlie, etc) and most any fowler (English) is that the fowler has almost robotic pointability whereas the musket demands a radical change to form/aiming/etc ... for me.  I'm too old to change what has become dogmatic repeatability over the last 70+ years or so. 

I wonder if there were any 18th c militia who would've rather kept their trusty farm fowler (sans bayonet, and opted for a 'hawk) than use an issued Charlie?   

All that said, my use of a musket isn't specific for aiming/target/hunting, so if the drop is shallow and un-fowler-like in the forthcoming Kibler Bess it's no big deal, for me ... Jim, when can I put in my order?!   

[smart dog]

Hi rfd,

Let me relate advise given to us by a past commander of Seth Warner's Green Mountain Boys.  Cliff was a drill sergeant and trainer who deployed multiple times to IraQ and Afghanistan.  He recommended that shooters raise the repro Besses high on the shoulder such that only the lower 1/3 of the butt plate rested in the pocket of your shoulder.  When you do that  the repro Besses usually snug up to your cheek well and are locked in place on your shoulder.  Jim Kibler's Bess will do even better. The problem is that there is not much butt plate in contact with your shoulder to absorb recoil.  Unfortunately virtually none of those reenactor experts have ever fired a real Bess.  There is a reason why the gun was never popular as anything other than a military musket.  It was too heavy and clumsy for a hunting gun and used too much lead and powder for any kind of trade gun.  People took old Besses apart and reused the components to make better civilian guns but the musket as issued served military purposes and not much else even when remade.

There certainly were many militia units that had members with civilian fowlers, some even cut back for bayonets.  It is always ironic that so many patriot reenactors at "Battle Road" carry repro Pedersoli and Miroku Besses. That is so inaccurate because none would have short land Besses,  few would have Besses at all, most would have old French muskets, imported English fowlers, and some locally made New England fowlers. Very few would have bayonets.

dave       

[rfd]

Hi rfd,

Let me relate advise given to us by a past commander of Seth Warner's Green Mountain Boys.  Cliff was a drill sergeant and trainer who deployed multiple times to IraQ and Afghanistan.  He recommended that shooters raise the repro Besses high on the shoulder such that only the lower 1/3 of the butt plate rested in the pocket of your shoulder.  When you do that  the repro Besses usually snug up to your cheek well and are locked in place on your shoulder.  Jim Kibler's Bess will do even better. The problem is that there is not much butt plate in contact with your shoulder to absorb recoil.  Unfortunately virtually none of those reenactor experts have ever fired a real Bess.  There is a reason why the gun was never popular as anything other than a military musket.  It was too heavy and clumsy for a hunting gun and used too much lead and powder for any kind of trade gun.  People took old Besses apart and reused the components to make better civilian guns but the musket as issued served military purposes and not much else even when remade.

There certainly were many militia units that had members with civilian fowlers, some even cut back for bayonets.  It is always ironic that so many patriot reenactors at "Battle Road" carry repro Pedersoli and Miroku Besses. That is so inaccurate because none would have short land Besses,  few would have Besses at all, most would have old French muskets, imported English fowlers, and some locally made New England fowlers. Very few would have bayonets.

dave     

Spot on, Dave! 

Like musicians who obsess over gear, some reenactors oblige the same for their gear/persona, and in both instances only the overall performance is what matters most to the audience.  I doubt many at Rev War reenactments get into the minutiae of the gear from a period perspective (the guns, how the clothing is made and what it's made of, etc), they're there for the "play" experience, the boom and smoke, and hopefully some will get a tiny glimpse into the American struggle (sans the real bloody gore and the devastating hardships).

At least Jim's Bess kit will be a more appropriate musket for the 250th events, for both the Blues and the Reds. 

Cheers,
Rob.

[5judge]

A couple caveats to the immediate prior, useful posts. As a reenactor myself, a veteran of four decades wearing wool on hot days, I can testify there is a core of reenacting "thread counters" (  they obsess over how many stitches-per-inch is accurate on clothing and leather items)who are very, very serious about the accuracy of their gear, clothing, kit, weaponry, drill and living conditions. They're not in the hobby to gratify spectators but to satisfy themselves and each other, whether they portray a Roman legionnaire or a Vietnam grunt. And, second, indeed, there are those out there who actually fire original Brown Besses, mostly India pattern and many of those from the fabulous Nepal cache (see photo below). As to the latter assertion, check out the "British Militaria" sites. Subscribers to that and other like sites will doubtless be customers for the Kibler Brown Bess offering.

[FlinterNick]

The Pedersoli Bess kit I bought off DGW was a bit of a disappointment and not the typical offshore "screwdriver kit".  More than a few details were out of spec and required a fair amount of fixing (way off center pipe stock mortises, and other inlet/mortise components that were just a bit "off").  But the lock itself is at least decent, with a hard hammer steel that sparks well.  It'll be a relief to get a Kibler Bess kit.

Thats because it’s not a brown Bess, it’s a Pedersoli Bess

[rfd]

The Pedersoli Bess kit I bought off DGW was a bit of a disappointment and not the typical offshore "screwdriver kit".  More than a few details were out of spec and required a fair amount of fixing (way off center pipe stock mortises, and other inlet/mortise components that were just a bit "off").  But the lock itself is at least decent, with a hard hammer steel that sparks well.  It'll be a relief to get a Kibler Bess kit.

Thats because it’s not a brown Bess, it’s a Pedersoli Bess

Oh phooey - ya hafta go spoil the fun?   

To each their own, and call it what ya like it's still going be called a Bess by most everyone.  Nope, mebbe not politically period correct, but in this case it looks and acts kinda like a duck and that'll be good enuf for at least one of its intended purposes (AWI events).  I suspect the collectors will source out a proper Bess build from any good prominent smith.

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
Unfortunately, there is no pattern of Brown Bess issued to British troops, except possibly the marine and militia musket, that bridges the F&I war and Rev war.  The pattern 1756 long land was not issued in time to serve in America during the F&I war but it was the most common musket issued to British troops during the first 2 years of the Rev war and was still made until 1791.  It was also the main gun issued to loyalists and it also armed many patriot troops.  On the patriot side there could be some old pattern 1742 long lands still in useable condition in colonial stores or in private ownership (stolen from the crown) so that pattern gun could bridge the two wars with American troops.  With the exception of the marine and militia musket, short lands did not start to show up among British troops until 1774 at the earliest.   Although the gun was the pattern 1769 short land, ordnance always issued older guns in store first before sending out new patterns.  The pattern dates indicate the year a pattern was accepted and production begun, not when they were issued  They had plenty of long lands in store at the beginning of the war so those got issued first.  The first big slug of short lands came in spring 1776 among troops sent to relieve Quebec City.  Those were labeled "Dublin Castle".  However, even then, the commander of the 24th foot demanded long lands and even delayed sailing for America to get them. Another slug came with some troops sent to capture Charleston in 1776.  Despite those regiments, the majority of British troops had long lands until 1777 or so.  On the patriot side there would be very few short lands until much later in the war.  They would come from captured ships and battlefield acquisitions. 

So the pattern 1756 long land with a lock simply marked "TOWER" and no date on the tail would be a good choice for patriots and British reenactors for much of the Rev War.  Although it was not used during the F&I war, it still looks a lot more authentic than any of the repro short lands carried by so many F&I reenactors today.  Regardless of pattern, the musket if made authentically, will be about 1-1.5 lbs heavier than your Pedersolis and Mirokus and much bigger in all dimensions.  I am sure Jim will do a great job on it and with his production methods, I suspect he could eventually produce both short and long lands without a lot of extra tooling.  He will turn the Brown Bess market on its head, which will be a good thing, long overdue.

dave

Great information Dave

I think my personal favorite style for bridging the F&I war and Rev War Bess is a contract Bess of the Wilson style and other pre 56 types.

[TDW]

I believe this has been the most informative thread I  have read (on any forum) in the last few years!
Well done, Gentlemen!!
TomW.

[FlinterNick]

Will definitely be ordering one in English Walnut / supplied by me.

[rfd]

And ... now ... the ... wait ... begins ....................